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Why do you do all this twisting and turning to try to excuse these symbols "Ah it's a reverse orientation, ah it's just a nationalist symbol with far-right conn

by aprilthird2021 2y ago

Why do you do all this twisting and turning to try to excuse these symbols "Ah it's a reverse orientation, ah it's just a nationalist symbol with far-right connotations, it's not Nazi!" Why not just change the symbols because your biggest supporters and allies have issues with it and the history behind it (you know very well the history of Ukrainian collaboration with Germany in WWII and where these symbols come from. Sure it's complicated but that's where it comes from). If NATO can't show pictures of soldiers due to the insignia, if journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove certain patches before interviewing them, why do they wear them at all? Just because they stand next to Jews doesn't mean they aren't the kinds of people who love far-right Nazi symbols and what they mean. Said Qutb moved to the US and spent lots of time around Americans before starting an anti-Western ideological group. But all this could be eliminated if the insistence of Azov on their tarnished names and symbols were removed. Why do they cling to them so much? Why are they so resistant to such a sensible request? These are the things that make people hesitant to support them, and they are extremely aware of it. This is the reason the US had a ban on arming Azov for years till very recently. They know what it looks like and they fight to keep it that way. That should raise some concern for anyone.

racional 2y ago
The one doing the twisting and turning on this subject is you. The simple fact is -- you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked. Own it, and move on.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  > you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because they wear Nazi insignia? It's not true that journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove their Nazi insignia when being photographed? In fact all are true. Here are the sources: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-... An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#m... https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523 https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols... Don't close your eyes to facts and truth. The world is complex. Try to find the truth in that complexity
  - racional 2y ago
    So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine. But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an image of Ukrainians as basically congenital Nazis, and that's the your big subliminal message here? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? In fact it's not true. The Azov insignia is not derived from the Wolfsangel, or any of the symbols used by the Galicia Division or any other collaborationist units. An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top Seriously -- what's the logic here? What is this supposed to prove? Check in any American Nazi rally from the 1930s to the present; the photos are all over the place -- and (get ready to start trembling now) you'll invariably find prominent displays of swastika banners right along side the Stars and Stripes. Does that make it a Nazi flag?
    - racional 2y ago
      "Check in on", "alongside"
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it. To complete the analogy, if an American military unit used the same symbols the Nazis used while collaborating with the Nazis during WWII and then a modern-day American military unit proudly used those same symbols while constantly being told by all their allies, NATO, various allies journalists, etc. that these symbols cannot be shown to the public, they should absolutely be disbanded and never allowed to use such symbols again. Why doesn't that happen in Ukraine? It's such a an obvious thing to do, you never ever answer this question, just always pick on minor things and make up strange interpretations of minor parts of what I'm saying

racional 2y ago

The one doing the twisting and turning on this subject is you. The simple fact is -- you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked. Own it, and move on.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
> you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because they wear Nazi insignia? It's not true that journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove their Nazi insignia when being photographed? In fact all are true. Here are the sources: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-... An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#mw-jump-to-license https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#m... https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523 https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols... Don't close your eyes to facts and truth. The world is complex. Try to find the truth in that complexity
- racional 2y ago
  So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine. But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an image of Ukrainians as basically congenital Nazis, and that's the your big subliminal message here? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? In fact it's not true. The Azov insignia is not derived from the Wolfsangel, or any of the symbols used by the Galicia Division or any other collaborationist units. An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top Seriously -- what's the logic here? What is this supposed to prove? Check in any American Nazi rally from the 1930s to the present; the photos are all over the place -- and (get ready to start trembling now) you'll invariably find prominent displays of swastika banners right along side the Stars and Stripes. Does that make it a Nazi flag?
  - racional 2y ago
    "Check in on", "alongside"
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it. To complete the analogy, if an American military unit used the same symbols the Nazis used while collaborating with the Nazis during WWII and then a modern-day American military unit proudly used those same symbols while constantly being told by all their allies, NATO, various allies journalists, etc. that these symbols cannot be shown to the public, they should absolutely be disbanded and never allowed to use such symbols again. Why doesn't that happen in Ukraine? It's such a an obvious thing to do, you never ever answer this question, just always pick on minor things and make up strange interpretations of minor parts of what I'm saying