5 ms·

While I think you're getting there, I think there's a better explanation: variable reward schedules (eg. slot machines). More of Schultz's work looks at this [

While I think you're getting there, I think there's a better explanation: variable reward schedules (eg. slot machines). More of Schultz's work looks at this [1]. Basically, a reward of 50% of the time is far more addictive for Julio and his pals than 100% (eg. the Staff of Beatings only drops 50% from The Butcher). Diablo 2 uses a traditional variable reward schedule for its loot system, as seen in most other RPGs. Diablo 3 uses gold (stick with me). You need gold to get the items the game requires you to have from the AH, and you're mostly burning the loot you find in-game for gold on the AH or other mats. This means that you're working on a small, 100% drip feed, which you eventually cash out in a predictable fashion. Not as addictive! I don't agree with your assertion of a frustration loop being different. Diablo 2 could be just as frustrating if loot you needed didn't drop in time. One thing I think Blizzard has done very poorly is that AH transactions do not provide instant gratification, but take up to 48 hours to process(!). This means if you are in a rut, you'll have two days stuck in it, and perhaps just break the habit and leave altogether. [1]: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/299/5614/1898.full http://www.sciencemag.org/content/299/5614/1898.full

alex_c 14y ago
That is a great explanation, thank you. I think it's what I was really aiming for, but didn't quite get there.
apike 14y ago
> AH transactions do not provide instant gratification, but take up to 48 hours to process(!) Because of this, most Auction House transactions completed are buyouts. Bidding on almost-expired items happens, but most people (especially under max level) are only buying items.
- Lewisham 14y ago
  This is even for buyouts as far as I know: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5270832522 https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5270832522 My buyout on Sunday still hasn't posted today.
  - RegEx 14y ago
    I didn't know this was an issue, I get my items immediately.
  - dangrossman 14y ago
    That's a rare bug. Not a single reply to that thread. 99.999% of the time, buyouts are instant.
    - Lewisham 14y ago
      Well, that makes me sad. I've had one interaction with the AH, and it was that one. It was after I'd had my account hacked (which we can talk about some other time...) and I needed to regear my character. Still no chest piece :(
      - izend 14y ago
        Blizzard authenticator my friend...
        Lewisham 14y ago
        I did have an authenticator. I used the Dial-In Authenticator, as I didn't like the idea of an authenticator being tied to my phone (I do change phones, but not telephone numbers). Apparently, it didn't trigger. I played Diablo at a conference on the East Coast, and I live on the West, and it didn't trigger then either. My guess is that it just doesn't work. Although how was I to know that?
        alex_c 14y ago
        The dial-in authenticator apparently doesn't work with Diablo, the only ones that work are the physical authenticator and the smartphone app. (source: various forum posts, nothing I can find right now). I'm not convinced there's any actual security breach, but Blizzard has been doing a pretty terrible job of explaining the authenticators to their players.
sterling312 14y ago
The elaborate on the Schultz paper, dopaminergic reward feedback mechanism is for unexpected reward only. Repeated stimulation depreciates the neuronal signals. A take home message from this is that an ideal diablo 2 drop has a expected drop time of T, and should never change. The reward, of course, can come from increased benefit of character strength, or from the rare item itself (Herald of Zakarum + Barnar Star ftw). It seems to me like the T for Diablo 3 is much greater than that of Diablo 2, and because pretty much set items and unique items are non-existent, the satisfaction of getting the item from drops is also non-existent. Alas, the AH allows you to gain strength when you are stuck, but because the time it takes you to go to AH is not a function of T itself, since you can go whenever you want, it does not really contribute to the over all game reward mechanism. Not to mention the horrible infrastructure they have built for the AH as Lewisham mentioned.
- Lewisham 14y ago
  The elaborate on the Schultz paper, dopaminergic reward feedback mechanism is for unexpected reward only. Repeated stimulation depreciates the neuronal signals. As I'm still working through this stuff, and am certainly no psychologist or neurobiologist, did I say anything above that was contradictory to this? It sounds like you know more than I do about the subject (I'm dabbling in it for my Computer Science thesis) and I'm always paranoid that I'm overstating or overgeneralizing some experiment result.
  - sterling312 14y ago
    Oh no, you did not contradict it at all. It is one of the vital point that was pointed out in the paper, and I wanted to make sure anybody else who don't having interest in reading the actual paper to have an opportunity to get this particular point across. I'm a researcher in a neuroscience lab, and this is one of the foundational paper into modern understanding of reward mechanism. Kudos to you for linking it here :)
    - slurgfest 14y ago
      Dopamine doesn't just spike at unexpected "rewards," though. It can also spike at surprising loud noises, etc.

alex_c 14y ago

That is a great explanation, thank you. I think it's what I was really aiming for, but didn't quite get there.

apike 14y ago

> AH transactions do not provide instant gratification, but take up to 48 hours to process(!) Because of this, most Auction House transactions completed are buyouts. Bidding on almost-expired items happens, but most people (especially under max level) are only buying items.

Lewisham 14y ago
This is even for buyouts as far as I know: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5270832522 https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5270832522 My buyout on Sunday still hasn't posted today.
- RegEx 14y ago
  I didn't know this was an issue, I get my items immediately.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  That's a rare bug. Not a single reply to that thread. 99.999% of the time, buyouts are instant.
  - Lewisham 14y ago
    Well, that makes me sad. I've had one interaction with the AH, and it was that one. It was after I'd had my account hacked (which we can talk about some other time...) and I needed to regear my character. Still no chest piece :(
    - izend 14y ago
      Blizzard authenticator my friend...
      - Lewisham 14y ago
        I did have an authenticator. I used the Dial-In Authenticator, as I didn't like the idea of an authenticator being tied to my phone (I do change phones, but not telephone numbers). Apparently, it didn't trigger. I played Diablo at a conference on the East Coast, and I live on the West, and it didn't trigger then either. My guess is that it just doesn't work. Although how was I to know that?
        alex_c 14y ago
        The dial-in authenticator apparently doesn't work with Diablo, the only ones that work are the physical authenticator and the smartphone app. (source: various forum posts, nothing I can find right now). I'm not convinced there's any actual security breach, but Blizzard has been doing a pretty terrible job of explaining the authenticators to their players.

sterling312 14y ago

The elaborate on the Schultz paper, dopaminergic reward feedback mechanism is for unexpected reward only. Repeated stimulation depreciates the neuronal signals. A take home message from this is that an ideal diablo 2 drop has a expected drop time of T, and should never change. The reward, of course, can come from increased benefit of character strength, or from the rare item itself (Herald of Zakarum + Barnar Star ftw). It seems to me like the T for Diablo 3 is much greater than that of Diablo 2, and because pretty much set items and unique items are non-existent, the satisfaction of getting the item from drops is also non-existent. Alas, the AH allows you to gain strength when you are stuck, but because the time it takes you to go to AH is not a function of T itself, since you can go whenever you want, it does not really contribute to the over all game reward mechanism. Not to mention the horrible infrastructure they have built for the AH as Lewisham mentioned.

Lewisham 14y ago
The elaborate on the Schultz paper, dopaminergic reward feedback mechanism is for unexpected reward only. Repeated stimulation depreciates the neuronal signals. As I'm still working through this stuff, and am certainly no psychologist or neurobiologist, did I say anything above that was contradictory to this? It sounds like you know more than I do about the subject (I'm dabbling in it for my Computer Science thesis) and I'm always paranoid that I'm overstating or overgeneralizing some experiment result.
- sterling312 14y ago
  Oh no, you did not contradict it at all. It is one of the vital point that was pointed out in the paper, and I wanted to make sure anybody else who don't having interest in reading the actual paper to have an opportunity to get this particular point across. I'm a researcher in a neuroscience lab, and this is one of the foundational paper into modern understanding of reward mechanism. Kudos to you for linking it here :)
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    Dopamine doesn't just spike at unexpected "rewards," though. It can also spike at surprising loud noises, etc.