4 ms·

Wise move. The "car obesity epidemic" in the last ~20 years scares me as a pedestrian. It feels less safe to walk the streets. The average car I see in the stre

by Qem 2y ago

Wise move. The "car obesity epidemic" in the last ~20 years scares me as a pedestrian. It feels less safe to walk the streets. The average car I see in the streets got noticeably bigger, taking a lot of space. To see drivers navigating narrower streets today is like watching a tetris game, with vehicles barely fitting side-by-side, requiring curb climbing and/or a lot of skill. Rearview mirrors and tire caps get damaged very often. In the arms race for driving the largest car, everybody loses.

bequanna 2y ago
Living in a somewhat rural area, I have no choice but to own a car. And since I have a family, I want to drive the safest, most practical car possible that can handle frequent needs like transporting children, pets, luggage, etc all at the same time. A "large" SUV checks all the boxes. If I lived in an urban area, I think it would be difficult and annoying to own a larger vehicle. Traffic, parking, narrow lanes, bikes, peds, etc would all make it pretty inconvenient. Many cities are charging vehicles to enter (like NYC). Maybe they could charge considerably more for larger vehicles or make it very low cost for small, compact cars?
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  The minivan and station wagon both used to be more common and were generally safer. We just need to close the SUV mileage loophole. A lot of modern SUVs and crossovers actually have poor capacities relative to their size.
  - bequanna 2y ago
    Well, station wagons and minivans still exist—-we now just call them “crossover” SUVs. And I’ve looked at those options: the storage, seating and safety is just not the same as a large SUV. If you are using the word “safety” to mean safety for peds and bicyclists, I would likely agree with you that smaller cars are better for that. There are many blind spots on larger SUVs.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      For safety not only are they better for peds and bicyclists but also for other cars. Part of the reason why people are dogpiling into SUVs is that they destroy other cars in collisions, and so to remain safe in a road that is filling up with SUVs you must also be in one.
    - Qem 2y ago
      > If you are using the word “safety” to mean safety for peds and bicyclists, I would likely agree with you that smaller cars are better for that. For car drivers probably too, because today there is an "arms race" dynamic playing: while self.car < other.car: feel(unsafe) new_car = buy(car if car >= other.car) self.car = new_car feel(safe) smash(pedestrian) smash(cyclist) smash(other.car) Meanwhile everyone owning other.car is doing the same, so we are caught in a infinite loop and everyone ends worse and worse. A de-escalation is necessary.
  - binary132 2y ago
    I’m curious where you source the claim that station wagons were safer than SUVs.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      it depends on how you're defining "safe" and it's hard to get comparisons in 2024 since SUVs have almost completely wiped out station wagons in a product in the US. Generally speaking though, there are a couple ways in which SUVs are less safe in certain conditions: * SUVs sit higher and have a taller center of gravity than station wagons and are more susceptible to rollovers: https://www.avrek.com/blog/how-does-a-rollover-happen-and-what-you-can-do-to-avoid-it/ https://www.avrek.com/blog/how-does-a-rollover-happen-and-wh... * SUVs are more dangerous to other road users because of how tall they are. If you are a pedestrian, cyclist, or sitting in a lower car, then the main part of an SUV is aimed higher at your torso or head. This also creates a self-fulfilling cycle where the only way to be safe against an SUV is to be in an SUV yourself. Road fatality rates have stalled in the US while in other countries they are decreasing, and a big portion of that is that pedestrian fatalities have increased by 68% since 2011. https://smartgrowthamerica.org/pedestrian-fatalities-at-historic-high/ https://smartgrowthamerica.org/pedestrian-fatalities-at-hist... SUVs represent a oversized proportion of the vehicles striking and killing pedestrians. https://www.codot.gov/safety/shift-into-safe-news/2022/august/study-suvs-light-trucks-pose-significant-risk-to-pedestrian-crashes-involving-children https://www.codot.gov/safety/shift-into-safe-news/2022/augus...
- paulddraper 2y ago
  A minivan checks all those boxes, and is cheaper to buy and operate. (You need an SUV for poorly maintained roads, or towing trailers.)
giantg2 2y ago
A lot of that size increase was, somewhat ironically, due to safety standards. Body thickness seems to be much higher today than 30-40 years ago in my experience. Cars look big from the outside but feel cramped inside these days.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  If that were true, you wouldn't see any small cars because they would not comply with standard. It's just fashion.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    That's not what I'm saying at all and is a strawman. Compare the exterior size, interior size, and weight of an 80s corolla and one today. You'll find the door panels are much thicker, the car weighs about 20% more, the exterior dimensions have grown slightly, and it feels more cramped inside. Eg, it's not that we don't see small cars anymore. It's that small cars have gotten larger, heavier, and feel less spacious.
TulliusCicero 2y ago
A lot of it, maybe most of it, is just bad urban design that favors driver convenience and speed over everything else. We designed our roads to be dangerous and now they're dangerous.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  They’re not dangerous. There’s about 1 fatality for every 100 million miles driven, if I recall. That’s REALLY low and it is getting lower as safety features like automatic braking become ubiquitous.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    It is dangerous. The US has a per capita fatality rate substantially higher than most of its developed peers. Some 40,000 people die from traffic fatalities in the US every year, and it's one of the top killers for children.
    - TulliusCicero 2y ago
      I didn't have time to check when I wrote this comment, but looking now, the US rate looks like it's usually more than double that of major developed peers, and in some cases more than 3x as high. Fatalities per 100k inhabitants: South Korea - 5.3 Japan - 2.1 Italy - 5.2 UK - 2.9 Germany - 3.7 France - 5.0 Canada - 5.3 # USA - 12.9 The US actually does about the same as Mexico (12.8) despite being enormously richer and generally more developed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    Also, note that "per how many miles driven" is a deflection used by pro-car-dominance folks. Part of the problem in the US is precisely that the transportation system compels people to drive so much, and looking at fatalities per distance traveled obscures that danger.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
No, it’s not a wise move to prevent people from talking about things. That’s one of the most unwise things possible, actually. I don’t buy this hyperbole that people feel “unsafe” in the streets. I walk the streets with SUVs around me all the time and never feel unsafe. The chance of you having an injury is very low, and it would be illogical to worry about this possibility. If you really care about such low probability events, you might as well just live in a bubble all the time.

by Qem 2y ago

bequanna 2y ago

Living in a somewhat rural area, I have no choice but to own a car. And since I have a family, I want to drive the safest, most practical car possible that can handle frequent needs like transporting children, pets, luggage, etc all at the same time. A "large" SUV checks all the boxes. If I lived in an urban area, I think it would be difficult and annoying to own a larger vehicle. Traffic, parking, narrow lanes, bikes, peds, etc would all make it pretty inconvenient. Many cities are charging vehicles to enter (like NYC). Maybe they could charge considerably more for larger vehicles or make it very low cost for small, compact cars?

bobthepanda 2y ago
The minivan and station wagon both used to be more common and were generally safer. We just need to close the SUV mileage loophole. A lot of modern SUVs and crossovers actually have poor capacities relative to their size.
- bequanna 2y ago
  Well, station wagons and minivans still exist—-we now just call them “crossover” SUVs. And I’ve looked at those options: the storage, seating and safety is just not the same as a large SUV. If you are using the word “safety” to mean safety for peds and bicyclists, I would likely agree with you that smaller cars are better for that. There are many blind spots on larger SUVs.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    For safety not only are they better for peds and bicyclists but also for other cars. Part of the reason why people are dogpiling into SUVs is that they destroy other cars in collisions, and so to remain safe in a road that is filling up with SUVs you must also be in one.
  - Qem 2y ago
    > If you are using the word “safety” to mean safety for peds and bicyclists, I would likely agree with you that smaller cars are better for that. For car drivers probably too, because today there is an "arms race" dynamic playing: while self.car < other.car: feel(unsafe) new_car = buy(car if car >= other.car) self.car = new_car feel(safe) smash(pedestrian) smash(cyclist) smash(other.car) Meanwhile everyone owning other.car is doing the same, so we are caught in a infinite loop and everyone ends worse and worse. A de-escalation is necessary.
- binary132 2y ago
  I’m curious where you source the claim that station wagons were safer than SUVs.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    it depends on how you're defining "safe" and it's hard to get comparisons in 2024 since SUVs have almost completely wiped out station wagons in a product in the US. Generally speaking though, there are a couple ways in which SUVs are less safe in certain conditions: * SUVs sit higher and have a taller center of gravity than station wagons and are more susceptible to rollovers: https://www.avrek.com/blog/how-does-a-rollover-happen-and-what-you-can-do-to-avoid-it/ https://www.avrek.com/blog/how-does-a-rollover-happen-and-wh... * SUVs are more dangerous to other road users because of how tall they are. If you are a pedestrian, cyclist, or sitting in a lower car, then the main part of an SUV is aimed higher at your torso or head. This also creates a self-fulfilling cycle where the only way to be safe against an SUV is to be in an SUV yourself. Road fatality rates have stalled in the US while in other countries they are decreasing, and a big portion of that is that pedestrian fatalities have increased by 68% since 2011. https://smartgrowthamerica.org/pedestrian-fatalities-at-historic-high/ https://smartgrowthamerica.org/pedestrian-fatalities-at-hist... SUVs represent a oversized proportion of the vehicles striking and killing pedestrians. https://www.codot.gov/safety/shift-into-safe-news/2022/august/study-suvs-light-trucks-pose-significant-risk-to-pedestrian-crashes-involving-children https://www.codot.gov/safety/shift-into-safe-news/2022/augus...
paulddraper 2y ago
A minivan checks all those boxes, and is cheaper to buy and operate. (You need an SUV for poorly maintained roads, or towing trailers.)

giantg2 2y ago

A lot of that size increase was, somewhat ironically, due to safety standards. Body thickness seems to be much higher today than 30-40 years ago in my experience. Cars look big from the outside but feel cramped inside these days.

jay_kyburz 2y ago
If that were true, you wouldn't see any small cars because they would not comply with standard. It's just fashion.
- giantg2 2y ago
  That's not what I'm saying at all and is a strawman. Compare the exterior size, interior size, and weight of an 80s corolla and one today. You'll find the door panels are much thicker, the car weighs about 20% more, the exterior dimensions have grown slightly, and it feels more cramped inside. Eg, it's not that we don't see small cars anymore. It's that small cars have gotten larger, heavier, and feel less spacious.

TulliusCicero 2y ago

A lot of it, maybe most of it, is just bad urban design that favors driver convenience and speed over everything else. We designed our roads to be dangerous and now they're dangerous.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
They’re not dangerous. There’s about 1 fatality for every 100 million miles driven, if I recall. That’s REALLY low and it is getting lower as safety features like automatic braking become ubiquitous.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  It is dangerous. The US has a per capita fatality rate substantially higher than most of its developed peers. Some 40,000 people die from traffic fatalities in the US every year, and it's one of the top killers for children.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    I didn't have time to check when I wrote this comment, but looking now, the US rate looks like it's usually more than double that of major developed peers, and in some cases more than 3x as high. Fatalities per 100k inhabitants: South Korea - 5.3 Japan - 2.1 Italy - 5.2 UK - 2.9 Germany - 3.7 France - 5.0 Canada - 5.3 # USA - 12.9 The US actually does about the same as Mexico (12.8) despite being enormously richer and generally more developed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Also, note that "per how many miles driven" is a deflection used by pro-car-dominance folks. Part of the problem in the US is precisely that the transportation system compels people to drive so much, and looking at fatalities per distance traveled obscures that danger.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

No, it’s not a wise move to prevent people from talking about things. That’s one of the most unwise things possible, actually. I don’t buy this hyperbole that people feel “unsafe” in the streets. I walk the streets with SUVs around me all the time and never feel unsafe. The chance of you having an injury is very low, and it would be illogical to worry about this possibility. If you really care about such low probability events, you might as well just live in a bubble all the time.