4 ms·

Someone might sue because (they think) a letter wasn’t effusive enough to get them a job they wanted, or because someone else got a letter and they didn’t.

by nickff 2y ago

giantg2 2y ago
And why can't I sue for this being an unfair labor practice? There should be more risk on this side of it than the other.
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  It is not an unfair labor practice, nobody owes you a letter of recommendation. Corporations that have this policy always tell you that when you check on a prospective employee. “ Our policy is only to give dates of employment and X worked here from…” It is not a negative when you check on somebody and hear that. I’ve heard it many times. I can hardly take it as a sign of a bad employee when their company simply has a policy not to give references
  - AdrianB1 2y ago
    > nobody owes you a letter of recommendation It some countries they do. A friend sued his former employer because the letter of recommendation he got was not good enough. Strange thing is they agreed and also contacted him to come back working for them. But it depends on the country, in some countries letters of recommendation are very rare, I wrote a couple in more than 20 years, basically every time someone that worked for or with me asked for one.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      In the US, my sense is that letters of recommendation are pretty rare (at least past school admissions where they're pretty worthless). Oh, there's a ton of informal networking but very little official you should hire this person (or especially) run away now. I'd never do the latter. Companies at least used to ask for references on resumes in the US but I'm not sure how common that is at this point and it was usually co-workers/clients/etc, and not sure how often it was even checked.
      - AdrianB1 2y ago
        In Europe it is very different; in Romania they are almost never used, in the Switzerland they are almost mandatory.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    They don't have to owe you something for it to be unfair. It's anticompetitive behavior that makes getting another job harder. It's fine if they don't write you a letter. What isn't fine is a policy that forbids the writing of letters.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      It's not really anticompetitive though. It doesn't make getting another job harder because virtually nobody is getting references. Everyone's on the same playing field here. Letters of recommendations, or even reference phone calls, are something that are widespread in academia and in entry-level service jobs. Like if you want to be a server or bartender, they want to make sure you were actually showing up at your last job and didn't steal money from the register. They're not really a thing in the corporate world. Your technical expertise, certifications, and dates of employment pretty much speak for themselves. At least in the US.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        There are some people getting references. Most places also ask for references. Informally, all the people talking about jobs found via their network are references. It is absolutely harder finding a job without references than with references. You also have less leverage for negotiating salary. "Your technical expertise, certifications, and dates of employment pretty much speak for themselves." This isn't true at all. Why do interviews if you just make the decision off the resume? Why do code screens or LeetCode? I have tons of experience and a long tenure, a masters degree, multiple certs, etc yet I'm a low performer with a disability who struggles to even get interviews. But you wouldn't know that by looking at my resume. At one point I was a high performer and a letter of recommendation could have really helped me.
        crazygringo 2y ago
        I never said make a decision off of a resume. When I said "your technical expertise", I meant as assessed by interviews, code screens, etc. I've never even been asked for references at any technical job in my life. HR departments generally do make some attempt at verifying employment, doing a background check, etc. So no, in these cases it's not harder. There's no leverage either way. Because what do reference letters even mean? How do you know the person writing the letter is even telling the truth? This is somebody you've never met and don't know at all. How do you know they don't unfairly hold a grudge against this ex-employee because they took it personally when they quit? Or how do you know they don't just write glowing references for everyone because they know "it's tough out there" and "everyone deserves a second chance"? I always assumed this is why I've never been asked for references in my professional career, because the companies I applied to knew that references aren't worth the paper they're written on.
- winstonewert 2y ago
  I suspect it's much easier for someone to sue on the claim of being unfairly discriminated against than on the claim that a particular company policy with a legitimate stated justification is an unfair labor practice.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Just because there's a justification doesn't make it an excuse to participate in anticompetitive behavior. The NLRB getting involved seems like a bigger risk than the letter of recommendation.
    - winstonewert 2y ago
      You are wrong. Since you show no signs of recognizing that, or providing any reason to back up your assertions, I'm done with this conversation.
      - giantg2 2y ago
        "You are wrong. Since you show no signs of recognizing that, or providing any reason to back up your assertions, I'm done with this conversation." Lol ok. You realize I can say the exact same thing to you...
        winstonewert 2y ago
        The difference is that me and others have repeatedly explained why you are wrong in this thread, and you keep repeating the same nonsense assertions.
        giantg2 2y ago
        I thought you said you were done? You've offered no facts to support what little you've said. You "suspect" some things and have been told some other things by your manager. I too have been told things by managers and suspect things myself. But I guess because it's your opinion, everyone else's opinion must be wrong.

Someone might sue because (they think) a letter wasn’t effusive enough to get them a job they wanted, or because someone else got a letter and they didn’t.

by nickff 2y ago

Someone might sue because (they think) a letter wasn’t effusive enough to get them a job they wanted, or because someone else got a letter and they didn’t.

giantg2 2y ago

And why can't I sue for this being an unfair labor practice? There should be more risk on this side of it than the other.

mattmaroon 2y ago
It is not an unfair labor practice, nobody owes you a letter of recommendation. Corporations that have this policy always tell you that when you check on a prospective employee. “ Our policy is only to give dates of employment and X worked here from…” It is not a negative when you check on somebody and hear that. I’ve heard it many times. I can hardly take it as a sign of a bad employee when their company simply has a policy not to give references
- AdrianB1 2y ago
  > nobody owes you a letter of recommendation It some countries they do. A friend sued his former employer because the letter of recommendation he got was not good enough. Strange thing is they agreed and also contacted him to come back working for them. But it depends on the country, in some countries letters of recommendation are very rare, I wrote a couple in more than 20 years, basically every time someone that worked for or with me asked for one.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    In the US, my sense is that letters of recommendation are pretty rare (at least past school admissions where they're pretty worthless). Oh, there's a ton of informal networking but very little official you should hire this person (or especially) run away now. I'd never do the latter. Companies at least used to ask for references on resumes in the US but I'm not sure how common that is at this point and it was usually co-workers/clients/etc, and not sure how often it was even checked.
    - AdrianB1 2y ago
      In Europe it is very different; in Romania they are almost never used, in the Switzerland they are almost mandatory.
- giantg2 2y ago
  They don't have to owe you something for it to be unfair. It's anticompetitive behavior that makes getting another job harder. It's fine if they don't write you a letter. What isn't fine is a policy that forbids the writing of letters.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    It's not really anticompetitive though. It doesn't make getting another job harder because virtually nobody is getting references. Everyone's on the same playing field here. Letters of recommendations, or even reference phone calls, are something that are widespread in academia and in entry-level service jobs. Like if you want to be a server or bartender, they want to make sure you were actually showing up at your last job and didn't steal money from the register. They're not really a thing in the corporate world. Your technical expertise, certifications, and dates of employment pretty much speak for themselves. At least in the US.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      There are some people getting references. Most places also ask for references. Informally, all the people talking about jobs found via their network are references. It is absolutely harder finding a job without references than with references. You also have less leverage for negotiating salary. "Your technical expertise, certifications, and dates of employment pretty much speak for themselves." This isn't true at all. Why do interviews if you just make the decision off the resume? Why do code screens or LeetCode? I have tons of experience and a long tenure, a masters degree, multiple certs, etc yet I'm a low performer with a disability who struggles to even get interviews. But you wouldn't know that by looking at my resume. At one point I was a high performer and a letter of recommendation could have really helped me.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        I never said make a decision off of a resume. When I said "your technical expertise", I meant as assessed by interviews, code screens, etc. I've never even been asked for references at any technical job in my life. HR departments generally do make some attempt at verifying employment, doing a background check, etc. So no, in these cases it's not harder. There's no leverage either way. Because what do reference letters even mean? How do you know the person writing the letter is even telling the truth? This is somebody you've never met and don't know at all. How do you know they don't unfairly hold a grudge against this ex-employee because they took it personally when they quit? Or how do you know they don't just write glowing references for everyone because they know "it's tough out there" and "everyone deserves a second chance"? I always assumed this is why I've never been asked for references in my professional career, because the companies I applied to knew that references aren't worth the paper they're written on.
winstonewert 2y ago
I suspect it's much easier for someone to sue on the claim of being unfairly discriminated against than on the claim that a particular company policy with a legitimate stated justification is an unfair labor practice.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Just because there's a justification doesn't make it an excuse to participate in anticompetitive behavior. The NLRB getting involved seems like a bigger risk than the letter of recommendation.
  - winstonewert 2y ago
    You are wrong. Since you show no signs of recognizing that, or providing any reason to back up your assertions, I'm done with this conversation.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      "You are wrong. Since you show no signs of recognizing that, or providing any reason to back up your assertions, I'm done with this conversation." Lol ok. You realize I can say the exact same thing to you...
      - winstonewert 2y ago
        The difference is that me and others have repeatedly explained why you are wrong in this thread, and you keep repeating the same nonsense assertions.
        giantg2 2y ago
        I thought you said you were done? You've offered no facts to support what little you've said. You "suspect" some things and have been told some other things by your manager. I too have been told things by managers and suspect things myself. But I guess because it's your opinion, everyone else's opinion must be wrong.