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European Alternatives
- lijunhao 2y agoA list of search engines I haven't known before: https://european-alternatives.eu/category/search-engines https://european-alternatives.eu/category/search-engines
- timeon 2y agoSeems like mostly Bing-based.
- ricardo81 2y agoPresumably because of Brexit, Mojeek is not listed. Is sort-of-interesting how some European lists include/exclude the UK. https://www.mojeek.com/ https://www.mojeek.com/ One of the largest Western world indexes outside of Bing/Google, own crawler/ranking and privacy friendly.
- mike_hearn 2y agoRedefining Europe to mean something other than the geographical location is a very bad habit of the pro-EU contingent. The EU institutions do this all the time but they aren't the only offenders, which is how Eurovision ends up including Australia and Israel. These people seem to really hate that Europe is a geographically defined landmass (which includes Russia), and would much rather it be a social construct reflecting a specific set of cultural values. But I guess "EU/EFTA Alternatives" is not as snappy.
- MrSkelter 2y agoYour comment about Eurovision is simply wrong. The countries participating, with the exception of Australia, are all current or prior members of a European Broadcasting Union. The event was devised as content and when Israel joined the broadcasting organization they got the opportunity to pay to participate. Australia is involved because they requested participation as the event is massively popular there. Europe is a political concept more than it is a geography. Copenhagen and Berlin are tied together by law. Moscow and Berlin are not. Saying “Europe” in this context without reference to politics is meaningless. There is borderless trade within the EU but not with the UK. That is a fundamental difference and just one example.
- mike_hearn 2y agoI don't get it. How is my comment about Eurovision wrong when you then immediately agree with what I just said? It calls itself the European Broadcasting Union and the Eurovision song contest, but as you clearly agree, its membership rules have nothing to do with being in Europe. Europe is quite obviously not a political concept. It's an ancient word that always has and always will mean a geographical area. You're repeating the exact behavior we are openly criticizing in this thread. Misusing language in that way is not only a cheap attempt to manipulate and socially engineer populations, but actively divisive. This thread is a perfect example. Europe hasn't managed to produce many Google competitors, but there's one in the UK and now the people who run it are hurt and upset because they were excluded from a list that claims to represent all of Europe, but in reality the list is some sort of ideological construct defined by political allegiances. I really don't think self-proclaimed "European citizens" realize how much damage they do to the continent with this approach. It's not just the UK, I live in Switzerland and these games get noticed here too. Many problems are geographical in nature (war, famine, energy, immigration etc). Europe could use as much collaboration as it can get. Alienating some of the continent's most successful countries is the worst way to bring that about.
- toni 2y agoStartpage is owned by an American advertising company (System1) https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_is_now_owned_by_an_advertising_company/ https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/di5rn3/startpage_i...
- matt-p 2y agoAll of these are bing based and/or have US parent Cos. So how exactly are they "European"? A European company put a react UI ontop of the bing API - seriously? Meanwhile the UK has at least one serious option (e.g https://mojeek.com https://mojeek.com) with it's own index, possibly larger than yandex and privacy friendly - but can't be included because we're not in the right protectionist club. Well guys, I hope this works for you. I voted against Brexit, but the behaviour of folks on the continent since has been beyond childish and has been making me reconsider the whole EU concept.
- bblommers 2y agoFrom the homepage: > As a business that operates in Europe, it is possible to get a VAT refund for products/services of other European companies. > European companies also tend to offer payment methods that are commonly used in Europe. > Within the EU, many laws and framework conditions are set by the EU, which helps to cover a large market without having to consider large country-specific differences. > It is also easier to enforce your rights against another company located in the EU. That sounds to me like there are plenty legitimate reasons to exclude the UK from a European (Union)-based list. They do seem to conflate Europe with the EU, which is unfortunate.
- matt-p 2y agoUK meets all of these points too FYI :). VAT is not paid/or refunded, we use the same payment methods and many will even accept euros if push comes to shove. GDPR is enshrined in law, we have an EU trade and co-op agreement.
- timeon 2y agoDid they refuse your proposal or is your attitude based only on fact that you have expected it to be there from start? > protectionist club > beyond childish Seems like you have already made your mind.
- matt-p 2y agoThey refused. It's honestly unfortunate and I desperately wish it wasn't true, but this is actually how it is.
- lijunhao 2y agohttps://european-alternatives.eu/about https://european-alternatives.eu/about --- Conditions for a listing All the products and services listed on European Alternatives meet the following criteria: The company is based in an EU, EEA, EFTA, or DCFTA member country. If the company has a parent or holding company, this company is also based in an EU, EEA, EFTA, or DCFTA member state. For hosting providers: It is not allowed that a hosting provider is simply a sub-hosting provider of a company that is not based in an EU or EFTA member country. Example: Hosting provider that just configures servers on AWS.
- radicalbyte 2y agoWhy? For the US - The Cloud Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act For China - the law is whatever they want it to be.
- byyll 2y agoBecause they have a website and they make the rules, it's not a law. The west Balkans and Belarus are also part of Europe but in none of the unions, associations, etc. mentioned so the domain is misleading too. It's not european, it's "those unions we like".
- ffsm8 2y agoEver heard of prism?
- matt-p 2y agoOh yeah and countries like Germany weren't a part of that at all
- brabel 2y agoWhy is Keycloak in this list? https://european-alternatives.eu/category/identity-and-access-management-iam-services https://european-alternatives.eu/category/identity-and-acces... The listing itself says it's an American company's product (RedHat).
- eastbound 2y ago[flagged]
- TwentyPosts 2y ago> Proton is clearly a front for the CIA Do you have any evidence to back that up?
- wil421 2y agoHush mail and similar providers were supposed to be the go to private email back in the day. Turns out the FBI was running the servers for who knows how long. I’ve had similar concerns about proton, looks like I’m not the only one. https://www.wired.com/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai/ https://www.wired.com/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai/
- g15jv2dp 2y agoThe article you linked is about Hushmail. Nothing about Protonmail.
- b112 2y agoI don't know if he does, but I vouched for this flagged thread, as this is a Hacker site, and such allegations should be met or discussed at least.
- OKRainbowKid 2y ago> the EU keeps people poor. Please elaborate, that's a wild claim.
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoThe general premise is that they favor large institutions over small businesses, e.g. by having more and more complicated rules that require more overhead to comply with. As a result people are less able to start their own business, which is one of the major checks on the need for large employers to pay higher wages (competition for labor) or charge lower prices (competition for customers). High levels of government assistance also tend to create poverty traps, because paying net benefits to high earning people is uneconomical but avoiding this when the base level of benefits is higher requires higher benefit phase out rates, which is equivalent to a higher marginal tax rate, in addition to the higher formal tax rates to pay for the benefits. The result is less incentive for individuals to try their hand at entrepreneurship, because the higher risk is still there (you could still go several years without making any money) but the higher reward is blunted.
- nunodonato 2y agoFunny, couldnt find Hetzner in there
- lijunhao 2y agohttps://european-alternatives.eu/product/hetzner https://european-alternatives.eu/product/hetzner
- Simon_ORourke 2y agoGood, I still have flashbacks to their awful cloud server uptime from a few years back. Every single hot summer afternoon when the temperature would hit 95 or 100 their servers would just mysteriously go offline. This was in Berlin btw, and I think their data center was somewhere not too far away in Germany.
- manuelmoreale 2y agoDefinitely not my experience. Have a bunch of VPS for personal and client stuff and never had a single issue so far.
- tasuki 2y agoTo be fair I wouldn't expect the temperature to ever hit 95 or 100 in Berlin. That's either in a sauna or American funny units.
- nalekberov 2y agomy two cents: Avoid using Tuta, I am talking as a person with more than 4 years experience using their product. Its search extremely bad, UI is so simple and everything is unnecessarily big, not event possibility to add any label. They barely improved their product within my >4 years of usage. I have already migrated most stuff to another mail provider.
- throwaway77384 2y agoI don't know if they are listed on the EU alternatives website, but for mail, I find Migadu to be excellent. I think they are Swiss.
- nutrie 2y ago> They barely improved their product within my >4 years of usage. Same with mailbox.org, having had my (paid) account with them for over 4 yrs since I went sans-Google, it was mostly a terrible experience. I recently tried Proton and they just kept flooding the inbox with conversion reminders, which I absolutely hate. Which different provider did you go with?
- nalekberov 2y ago> Which different provider did you go with? I actually fell back to Gmail for the time being - I just don't like to "advertise" any Google product for known reasons, even though Gmail is a quite solid product, sorry about the confusion - but that's my temporary solution. I am planning to either give Migadu a try or host my own mail provider. (I have seen some good feedback about https://mailcow.email https://mailcow.email)
- nutrie 2y agoYep, it's still hard to beat Gmail as a product. I had been with them since beta, I think it was by invite only back then. Time flies. I'm giving iCloud a try, even though it's rather painful on non-Apple systems.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rand1239 2y agoIn GitHub alternatives it shows https://gitlabhost.com/ https://gitlabhost.com/. Does anyone knows how copyright works when a different company uses GitLab name and offers competitive hosting to GitLab itself?
- wakaru44 2y agoas far as I Know they are doing nothing wrong and work in partnership with gitlab. They have a program for this. Check the gitlab wiki.
- Macha 2y agoTrademarks, not copyright would be the issue here. This is a clear use of the Gitlab trademark, which gives two options for being permitted to use it: 1. An agreement with Gitlab themselves. Gitlab's own published trademark guidelines do not allow its use within a business name, but this company claims to be in a partner program with Gitlab, so they may have worked on the side. (This is also how Gitlab/Github were grandfathered in for their use of the Git trademark) 2. Descriptive use. This is what allows e.g. "Bob's Kia Repairs". The laws on this vary a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and usually e.g. consider how likely it is to be confused with the trademarked business. I think gitlabhost would fail that test as you can see people thinking it is an offer from Gitlab themselves. And in general because of the non-uniformity of rules, you probably want to avoid relying on them for anything not inherently limited to a single jurisdiction.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- kennethwolters 2y agoThis actually looks great. More choices in terms of GitLab hosting pricing models.
- KronisLV 2y agoI wonder if Rackray https://www.rackray.com/ https://www.rackray.com/ or Time4VPS https://www.time4vps.com/ https://www.time4vps.com/ would qualify under the VPS provider category (they're in Lithuania). I've been using Time4VPS for a few years at this point, they've always been pretty decent. That said, they have been gradually rising prices and I think that something like Hetzner is more affordable at this point. Well, either that or Contabo for the cases where I just need a box that has enough RAM and don't do anything super CPU intensive. Scaleway also used to be competitive with them price-wise, but I don't think that's been the case for a while, it'd have to be more of a feature based comparison. I think there's a bunch of smaller companies in the Baltics as well, but maybe that'd make the list quite long and many of them seem to focus on local services mostly (nano.lv for hosting comes to mind). Either way, really cool site, I'm glad that this exists!
- OldOneEye 2y agoI can only speak positively of Hetzner. I particularly like that they have a Terraform provider. I've only used them for personal projects, though, so I can't say anything to the suitability in a corporate environment. In particular their support. That's quite an important factor when working in a corporate setting. I wish they already had that S3-like service they've announced for some time. It would be really handy.
- number6 2y agoThey have an outstanding professional support with in depth Linux knowledge and provide help, even if it is out of scope e.g. failed distro updates on a vps
- matt-p 2y agoIt seems incredibly petty to me to exclude UK companies from this list. We left, yeah ok. But this says European alternatives and we're in Europe as far as I'm aware.GDPR is enshrined in law and we've a EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. You're missing out on a massive plethora of services, London's tech industry is one of if not the strongest in Europe.
- scrollaway 2y agoTrade agreements only get you so far.. The UK is also a member of five eyes, among other things, which is one of the reasons why someone might be seeking a “European alternative”.
- matt-p 2y agoGermany has 81 large US military bases, Italy has 26, UK has 14. Sorry but if you think your internet traffic isn't being tapped by the US regardless you're completely delusional. At least in the UK were probably not letting EU countries tap it too :')
- p_l 2y agoFor legal purposes, including GDPR [1], UK is a "third country". Trade agreements do not change that - those that do, are listed on the site. [1] It currently has GDPR included in law, but there's nothing keeping it in law.
- matt-p 2y agoGenuinely I'd love to understand why this is an issue. This can trivially be solved contractually, indeed any UK tech company will have it in thier standard contract since they encounter it so often.
- p_l 2y agoNational law trumps corporate contracts, that's essentially the core of it. Similarly, GDPR gave teeth to pre-existing privacy laws in EU. Private contracts are nowhere near as enforceable, especially in terms of consequences - but the EU side of the contract will still be on the hook for legal consequences if UK company fails to uphold their side, or if UK changes a law that makes it incompatible with GDPR requirements (as in with US CLOUD act and the like).
- lnxg33k1 2y agoAvoid to sympathize for companies based on non-competitive parameters, they aren't your friends or do anything for you regardless of where they are, don't choose them for reasons like "Oh they pay taxes where you are so it will come back", chances are, they're not even paying taxes
- ivan_gammel 2y agoCompliance with EU regulations is an important parameter for many EU CTOs, so this can be indeed a useful project.
- lnxg33k1 2y agoCompanies from everywhere selling on EU territories already have to be compliant with EU regulations, so EU CTOs maybe need to learn something about import/export
- matt-p 2y agoYeah literally. Law and standard contracts provide for this already, this is just pure "one of us, one of us" protectionism
- ivan_gammel 2y ago> Law and standard contracts provide for this already I don’t think you really understand what are you talking about. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2020/652073/EPRS_ATA(2020)652073_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2020/6520... When US and EU laws are in conflict, a business can be compliant only with one of them.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- matt-p 2y agoFair enough, I was coming from a UK standpoint which has a trade agreement and GDPR in law.
- kkfx 2y agoI have an European alternative, my own iron in my own home, it's European since I'm an EU citizen living in the EU... The alternative to the modern computing is the classic iron ownership instead of living on the shoulder of giants, otherwise there is no difference between a US company and an EU one selling the same services. They are both third party whose job is making money for their shareholders. "But.... HW cost money!", yes, because someone else computers are notoriously free... https://tech.ahrefs.com/how-ahrefs-gets-a-billion-dollar-worth-infrastructure-with-a-90-discount-5edd473b2399 https://tech.ahrefs.com/how-ahrefs-gets-a-billion-dollar-wor... and of course owned hw is not a asset with an eventual resale value and a vast series of possibilities if a startup idea fail... Oh, yes, bandwidth might be tricky but co-location until a company is large enough to pay a personal proper link it's still an option, on their own hw. Dear devs startuppers where the recliner is the most valuable owned asset you have, it's about time to recalculate your economy.......
- karmakaze 2y agoThese all appear to be hosting-type services. Is there a similar list that's more consumer-oriented? Or are there zero alternative social network platforms?
- OptionOfT 2y agoThe second point, VAT refund, is moot. In Europe you pay VAT, and as a company, you get to as a refund on the VAT. But if, as a European company, you buy a service in the USA, you don't pay VAT. So no refunds to ask.
- workfromspace 2y agoI could tell how this website was created in Germany or by Germans, just by looking at the links of each service and see "Xing" there.