7 ms·

Bolivia's little-known African tribal kingdom (2021)

111 points by stareatgoats 2y ago

jajko 2y ago
Potosi is well worth the visit, if anybody had ever doubts how brutal slavery could be, look no more. Slaves lasted 6 weeks before dying horribly in some of the jobs they had, mostly in ore processing parts. Or if you want to see why its really not a good idea to be pregnant in >4000m altitude, look at their local church. Mines themselves are surprisingly still open and locals work there, even if they know very well within 15-20 years most of them will develop aggressive lung cancer. IIRC its from fine silica dust that is all over those mines in form of thick dust (and sometimes even raw crystals form on the walls). The hill in which the mines are is pure emmental, around 5000 entries IIRC from various directions and ages. Visited them with my wife/fiancée few years ago, local woman whose husband died from what I described above guided us quite deep inside. Never saw actual red sticks of dynamite with the burning string till that day. We offered very strong alcohol and coca leaves to Pachamama, had some leaves with 'activator' ourselves (and then went blabbing for half an hour due to mouth and tongue anesthesia). Those silica in the air are not benign, so there are warnings everywhere (and good modern masks should definitely help, we didn't have those unfortunately this was well before covid). A powerful experience, as backpacking around whole Bolivia is, to us its the most interesting country in South America to visit for intense adventure and lifelong memories. Yungas death road on a rented bike is another very memorable experience, from snowed plains and glaciers 4700m high into jungle in few hours.
- rendall 2y ago
  I do not know much about Bolivia. The little I know comes from this series by the travel vlogger Bald and Bankrupt: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqWdYjn21PdFLL0gOBMRf3HmyLQ6B_IW_ https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqWdYjn21PdFLL0gOBMRf3Hmy... The impression this series gives is that Bolivia can be somewhat dangerous. For instance, from his Wikipedia article, the ... video about a trip to Patamanta in Bolivia was reported by Gizmodo Español as "more scary than entering Chernobyl". In the video, he informed a local woman that he was a tourist, prompting her to warn him that "they burn people" in the area. Two men later approached Rich, inspected his passport, and gave him 30 minutes to explore and leave the area. And that video actually is terrifying. But, given that you backpacked around Bolivia with your fiance, your experience must have been different? Was Bald unfair to Bolivia? Is it relatively safe?
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Is it relatively safe?" I have not been to Bolivia myself, but this question is always relative. It depends what you count as save and where do you want to go, but also on your experience. "for intense adventure and lifelong memories. Yungas death road on a rented bike is another very memorable experience" Parent seems to have a higher risk tolerance. Also it matters a lot, if you can speak spanish and can act like a local. But if you look and act like a helpless gringo tourist, then you will likely get robbed or worse on the first day. But I know people who hitchhiked there without serious trouble as white gringos. So the answer is probably, it depends.
    - jajko 2y ago
      I have more than a year of cumulative backpacking experience all around the world when its just you, guide book ie Lonely planet and a loose plan for maybe next 2-4 days, mostly India but also other places. I don't know if that makes me one with 'higher risk tolerance', definitely higher than 0 to actually experience anything interesting. But I do some more intense sports like climbing or paragliding where some risk is unavoidable and you do your best to minimize your exposure to it, and this mindset then permeates rest of your persona. As for Bolivia, what parent described sounds like some extreme case of 'I walk randomly into favela with gold chain around the neck and rolex watches and shit happened' kind of foolish beginner behavior. Backpacking gives you some instincts what not to do. Did I feel safe in Bolivia in those few places we've done? Absolutely. Is the whole country completely safe in any situation? Most probably not, or it wasn't in 2018, no idea about current affairs. Btw neither me nor my fiancee/wife speak spanish, you can get by with 20 words if you have to. I've gone to Iran in cca 2015 (Mont Damavand, a bit of culture), an amazing experience and one of my best. Wouldn't go there currently, not because common people got bad (no, they were amazing and everybody spoke english well) but politics made it unsafe.
      - lukan 2y ago
        "I don't know if that makes me one with 'higher risk tolerance'" Compared to an average human, I would say yes. And yes, speaking the local language is not a must, I also got by in poor and potential dangerous places by communicating with hand and feat. Eye contact. The way one treats the people matters. Do they perceive you as a arrogant, bored rich westener who has come to visit the poor people zoo? That might end bad. But showing genuine interest yields different results.
- user070223 2y ago
  Kris Lane[0] has excellent work on potosi Potosi - "the first global city" [1] Potosi: The Silver City That Changed the World by Kris Lane[2] I've encountered Kris's work during the pandemic; He released a book "Pandemic in Potosí: Fear, Loathing, and Public Piety in a Colonial Mining Metropolis" [3] about the pandemic in 1719 which killed third of the city Potosi as a silver hotspot had a coin mint, and of course it had a fraud[4] https://liberalarts.tulane.edu/history/people/faculty-staff-name/kris-e-lane https://liberalarts.tulane.edu/history/people/faculty-staff-... https://aeon.co/essays/potosi-the-mountain-of-silver-that-was-the-first-global-city https://aeon.co/essays/potosi-the-mountain-of-silver-that-wa... https://www.amazon.com/Potosi-Changed-California-History-Library/dp/0520280849 https://www.amazon.com/Potosi-Changed-California-History-Lib... https://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-09198-3.html https://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-09198-3.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Potos%C3%AD_Mint_Fraud_of_1649 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Potos%C3%AD_Mint_Fraud_o...
mharig 2y ago
There are a lot more places worth the visit in Bolivia, apart from the Yungas and Potosí. Salar de Uyuni, Sucre (especially the Indigenous Art and Textiles Museum), National Reserve Torotoro, Pantanal (the Bolivian part is better than the Brasilian part), Tarija, and a lot more. Bolivia is at least as safe as the USofA. Just stay out of Chapare and keep an eye on your money and passport when traveling with bus (and of course in crowded places, but this is true for near the whole planet).
- mattbruv 2y ago
  Also, if you're interested in History and enjoy "off the beaten path" type of tourism, it's 100% worth the ~8 hour ride from Santa Cruz to visit La Higuera, the little pueblo where the Bolivian Government captured and executed Che Guevara. The schoolhouse that they executed him in is now converted into a tiny little museum, and the whole town has art and statues of him, it's a super interesting place.
  - mc32 2y ago
    Par for the course. They may as well have one for Butch Cassidy too.
    - nativeit 2y ago
      I’m not sure if you’re suggesting Che Guavara wasn’t assassinated, wasn’t assassinated in La Higuera, or that the museum dedicated to memorializing this historical event is either insincere or simply trading on Guevara’s memory as a cynical cash grab…so tldr; WTF are you on about?
      - titanomachy 2y ago
        I think they’re suggesting Guevara was a criminal and murderer and we shouldn’t idolize or memorialize him. America has strong and deeply ingrained anti-communist sentiment. I think that regardless of your political leaning, he is an interesting piece of history.
      - 2y ago
teruakohatu 2y ago
The Kingdom of Kongo had a civil war resulting two factions claiming the throne and a lot of victims being enslaved and being sent to South America. The monarchy was only disestablished in 1914. The ancestral story mentioned in the article is quite plausible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_Civil_War I am not sure where Uganda comes in, possibly the king has other relatives from there.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alexandroqc 2y ago
Just to add something interesting about them. Many of our favorite dances and music in Bolivia have being originated and developed from that zone, like Morenada or Caporales. It is a mix of african and andean sounds, which I think is wonderful. And yes I'm Bolivian :) Here some Saya I randomly found in YT (https://youtu.be/WbI1ncuyWbk https://youtu.be/WbI1ncuyWbk)
- prmoustache 2y ago
  That's interesting, thanks for sharing!
- user070223 2y ago
  The Charango and the Siku are Iconic in my opinion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kQZHYbZkLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kQZHYbZkLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqXtz3sxjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqXtz3sxjU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siku_(instrument) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siku_(instrument)
  - emmanueloga_ 2y ago
    You'll probably like Markama :-) -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZD5buXlmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZD5buXlmY
melenaboija 2y ago
> the mines are notorious for claiming the lives of roughly 8 million enslaved indigenous South Americans and Africans over a 300-year period As Spaniard this is disgusting to me and I don’t understand how talking about this still raises anger and some weird historic justifications. Wether we like it or not these are the pillars of the western world and why today we have privileges over most of the planet.
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > Wether we like it or not these are the pillars of the western world Not sure I understand you correctly, but I strongly disagree that colonialism was a necessary foundation for todays wealthy western democracies. I would consider it more another symptom-- once the perpetrators realized how outmatched the rest of the world was in military/logistics (especially compared to their direct neighbors). Older cultures acted exactly the same way, compare e.g. Romans, Huns, Egyptians, Persians (European colonialism just had the naval logistics to make this work on a bigger scale).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - fock 2y ago
    > Not sure I understand you correctly, but I strongly disagree that colonialism was a necessary foundation for todays wealthy western democracies. Then go visit Sevilla and enjoy the output of the mines in the cathedral (no danger at all). And then think a little how amassing enough silver by slavery to make a 60feet high altar 300 years ago didn't give you quite a nice headstart on dominating a world where most other competing cultures valued the same metals as currency. Not saying this is particularly wrong in the grand scheme or we need to all be in eternal deference to anyone claiming to be a descendant of the people our ancestors exterminated for this. But it should be clear, getting access to these resources and ruthlessly exploiting them made Europe rich and enabled all the other colonialization which followed.
mise_en_place 2y ago
He is very humble for a king. Many are prone to vulgar and ostentatious displays of wealth. However he has the dignity of a hard worker. Many could learn from his example.
- nathan_compton 2y ago
  Would prefer to simply get rid of the idea of kings entirely, personally.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    Wait, holup... :D
tdeck 2y ago
This is fascinating. If you're interested in African communities in South America, you might also like to read about San Basilio de Palenque. A community of escaped slaves that managed to fight off the Spanish so effectively the king gave up and granted the city freedom. Many people there speak the only Spanish-based creole language in South America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Basilio_de_Palenque https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Basilio_de_Palenque https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkOlzCoNstM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkOlzCoNstM

111 points by stareatgoats 2y ago

Potosi is well worth the visit, if anybody had ever doubts how brutal slavery could be, look no more. Slaves lasted 6 weeks before dying horribly in some of the jobs they had, mostly in ore processing parts. Or if you want to see why its really not a good idea to be pregnant in >4000m altitude, look at their local church. Mines themselves are surprisingly still open and locals work there, even if they know very well within 15-20 years most of them will develop aggressive lung cancer. IIRC its from fine silica dust that is all over those mines in form of thick dust (and sometimes even raw crystals form on the walls). The hill in which the mines are is pure emmental, around 5000 entries IIRC from various directions and ages. Visited them with my wife/fiancée few years ago, local woman whose husband died from what I described above guided us quite deep inside. Never saw actual red sticks of dynamite with the burning string till that day. We offered very strong alcohol and coca leaves to Pachamama, had some leaves with 'activator' ourselves (and then went blabbing for half an hour due to mouth and tongue anesthesia). Those silica in the air are not benign, so there are warnings everywhere (and good modern masks should definitely help, we didn't have those unfortunately this was well before covid). A powerful experience, as backpacking around whole Bolivia is, to us its the most interesting country in South America to visit for intense adventure and lifelong memories. Yungas death road on a rented bike is another very memorable experience, from snowed plains and glaciers 4700m high into jungle in few hours.

rendall 2y ago
I do not know much about Bolivia. The little I know comes from this series by the travel vlogger Bald and Bankrupt: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqWdYjn21PdFLL0gOBMRf3HmyLQ6B_IW_ https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqWdYjn21PdFLL0gOBMRf3Hmy... The impression this series gives is that Bolivia can be somewhat dangerous. For instance, from his Wikipedia article, the ... video about a trip to Patamanta in Bolivia was reported by Gizmodo Español as "more scary than entering Chernobyl". In the video, he informed a local woman that he was a tourist, prompting her to warn him that "they burn people" in the area. Two men later approached Rich, inspected his passport, and gave him 30 minutes to explore and leave the area. And that video actually is terrifying. But, given that you backpacked around Bolivia with your fiance, your experience must have been different? Was Bald unfair to Bolivia? Is it relatively safe?
- lukan 2y ago
  "Is it relatively safe?" I have not been to Bolivia myself, but this question is always relative. It depends what you count as save and where do you want to go, but also on your experience. "for intense adventure and lifelong memories. Yungas death road on a rented bike is another very memorable experience" Parent seems to have a higher risk tolerance. Also it matters a lot, if you can speak spanish and can act like a local. But if you look and act like a helpless gringo tourist, then you will likely get robbed or worse on the first day. But I know people who hitchhiked there without serious trouble as white gringos. So the answer is probably, it depends.
  - jajko 2y ago
    I have more than a year of cumulative backpacking experience all around the world when its just you, guide book ie Lonely planet and a loose plan for maybe next 2-4 days, mostly India but also other places. I don't know if that makes me one with 'higher risk tolerance', definitely higher than 0 to actually experience anything interesting. But I do some more intense sports like climbing or paragliding where some risk is unavoidable and you do your best to minimize your exposure to it, and this mindset then permeates rest of your persona. As for Bolivia, what parent described sounds like some extreme case of 'I walk randomly into favela with gold chain around the neck and rolex watches and shit happened' kind of foolish beginner behavior. Backpacking gives you some instincts what not to do. Did I feel safe in Bolivia in those few places we've done? Absolutely. Is the whole country completely safe in any situation? Most probably not, or it wasn't in 2018, no idea about current affairs. Btw neither me nor my fiancee/wife speak spanish, you can get by with 20 words if you have to. I've gone to Iran in cca 2015 (Mont Damavand, a bit of culture), an amazing experience and one of my best. Wouldn't go there currently, not because common people got bad (no, they were amazing and everybody spoke english well) but politics made it unsafe.
    - lukan 2y ago
      "I don't know if that makes me one with 'higher risk tolerance'" Compared to an average human, I would say yes. And yes, speaking the local language is not a must, I also got by in poor and potential dangerous places by communicating with hand and feat. Eye contact. The way one treats the people matters. Do they perceive you as a arrogant, bored rich westener who has come to visit the poor people zoo? That might end bad. But showing genuine interest yields different results.
user070223 2y ago
Kris Lane[0] has excellent work on potosi Potosi - "the first global city" [1] Potosi: The Silver City That Changed the World by Kris Lane[2] I've encountered Kris's work during the pandemic; He released a book "Pandemic in Potosí: Fear, Loathing, and Public Piety in a Colonial Mining Metropolis" [3] about the pandemic in 1719 which killed third of the city Potosi as a silver hotspot had a coin mint, and of course it had a fraud[4] https://liberalarts.tulane.edu/history/people/faculty-staff-name/kris-e-lane https://liberalarts.tulane.edu/history/people/faculty-staff-... https://aeon.co/essays/potosi-the-mountain-of-silver-that-was-the-first-global-city https://aeon.co/essays/potosi-the-mountain-of-silver-that-wa... https://www.amazon.com/Potosi-Changed-California-History-Library/dp/0520280849 https://www.amazon.com/Potosi-Changed-California-History-Lib... https://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-09198-3.html https://www.psupress.org/books/titles/978-0-271-09198-3.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Potos%C3%AD_Mint_Fraud_of_1649 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Potos%C3%AD_Mint_Fraud_o...

mharig 2y ago

There are a lot more places worth the visit in Bolivia, apart from the Yungas and Potosí. Salar de Uyuni, Sucre (especially the Indigenous Art and Textiles Museum), National Reserve Torotoro, Pantanal (the Bolivian part is better than the Brasilian part), Tarija, and a lot more. Bolivia is at least as safe as the USofA. Just stay out of Chapare and keep an eye on your money and passport when traveling with bus (and of course in crowded places, but this is true for near the whole planet).

mattbruv 2y ago
Also, if you're interested in History and enjoy "off the beaten path" type of tourism, it's 100% worth the ~8 hour ride from Santa Cruz to visit La Higuera, the little pueblo where the Bolivian Government captured and executed Che Guevara. The schoolhouse that they executed him in is now converted into a tiny little museum, and the whole town has art and statues of him, it's a super interesting place.
- mc32 2y ago
  Par for the course. They may as well have one for Butch Cassidy too.
  - nativeit 2y ago
    I’m not sure if you’re suggesting Che Guavara wasn’t assassinated, wasn’t assassinated in La Higuera, or that the museum dedicated to memorializing this historical event is either insincere or simply trading on Guevara’s memory as a cynical cash grab…so tldr; WTF are you on about?
    - titanomachy 2y ago
      I think they’re suggesting Guevara was a criminal and murderer and we shouldn’t idolize or memorialize him. America has strong and deeply ingrained anti-communist sentiment. I think that regardless of your political leaning, he is an interesting piece of history.
    - 2y ago

teruakohatu 2y ago

The Kingdom of Kongo had a civil war resulting two factions claiming the throne and a lot of victims being enslaved and being sent to South America. The monarchy was only disestablished in 1914. The ancestral story mentioned in the article is quite plausible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_Civil_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_Civil_War I am not sure where Uganda comes in, possibly the king has other relatives from there.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

alexandroqc 2y ago

Just to add something interesting about them. Many of our favorite dances and music in Bolivia have being originated and developed from that zone, like Morenada or Caporales. It is a mix of african and andean sounds, which I think is wonderful. And yes I'm Bolivian :) Here some Saya I randomly found in YT (https://youtu.be/WbI1ncuyWbk https://youtu.be/WbI1ncuyWbk)

prmoustache 2y ago
That's interesting, thanks for sharing!
user070223 2y ago
The Charango and the Siku are Iconic in my opinion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kQZHYbZkLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kQZHYbZkLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqXtz3sxjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqXtz3sxjU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siku_(instrument) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siku_(instrument)
- emmanueloga_ 2y ago
  You'll probably like Markama :-) -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZD5buXlmY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNZD5buXlmY

melenaboija 2y ago

> the mines are notorious for claiming the lives of roughly 8 million enslaved indigenous South Americans and Africans over a 300-year period As Spaniard this is disgusting to me and I don’t understand how talking about this still raises anger and some weird historic justifications. Wether we like it or not these are the pillars of the western world and why today we have privileges over most of the planet.

decremental 2y ago
[dead]
myrmidon 2y ago
> Wether we like it or not these are the pillars of the western world Not sure I understand you correctly, but I strongly disagree that colonialism was a necessary foundation for todays wealthy western democracies. I would consider it more another symptom-- once the perpetrators realized how outmatched the rest of the world was in military/logistics (especially compared to their direct neighbors). Older cultures acted exactly the same way, compare e.g. Romans, Huns, Egyptians, Persians (European colonialism just had the naval logistics to make this work on a bigger scale).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- fock 2y ago
  > Not sure I understand you correctly, but I strongly disagree that colonialism was a necessary foundation for todays wealthy western democracies. Then go visit Sevilla and enjoy the output of the mines in the cathedral (no danger at all). And then think a little how amassing enough silver by slavery to make a 60feet high altar 300 years ago didn't give you quite a nice headstart on dominating a world where most other competing cultures valued the same metals as currency. Not saying this is particularly wrong in the grand scheme or we need to all be in eternal deference to anyone claiming to be a descendant of the people our ancestors exterminated for this. But it should be clear, getting access to these resources and ruthlessly exploiting them made Europe rich and enabled all the other colonialization which followed.

mise_en_place 2y ago

He is very humble for a king. Many are prone to vulgar and ostentatious displays of wealth. However he has the dignity of a hard worker. Many could learn from his example.

nathan_compton 2y ago
Would prefer to simply get rid of the idea of kings entirely, personally.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  Wait, holup... :D

tdeck 2y ago

This is fascinating. If you're interested in African communities in South America, you might also like to read about San Basilio de Palenque. A community of escaped slaves that managed to fight off the Spanish so effectively the king gave up and granted the city freedom. Many people there speak the only Spanish-based creole language in South America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Basilio_de_Palenque https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Basilio_de_Palenque https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkOlzCoNstM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkOlzCoNstM