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Spent a lot of time messing around with it a few years ago. The tutorials of Takuma Nakata are great and it's very powerful and versatile for creating cool expe

Spent a lot of time messing around with it a few years ago. The tutorials of Takuma Nakata are great and it's very powerful and versatile for creating cool experimental stuff. Not sure what the big problem with licensing is? Feels like some people just want everything in this space to be free. 500 euro for a lifetime license seems pretty generous to me, it's basically a small fee if you use it for any kind of commercial application.

fsloth 2y ago
If the offering brings any value at all to development of a a commercial offering then 500 € is very reasonable. The point is it needs to improve something in your development flow that’s not available elsewhere, in terms of feature velocity, availability of talent, etc, not just curiosity. QT, Unity etc have price points in this zone and if I remember correctly are higher.
- DrSiemer 2y ago
  Have you actually seen VVVV? It's nothing like QT or Unity. It's a visual scripting tool, that does not require any real programming knowledge (although it definitely helps if you have some). One of our animators can't write code, but he made some interesting sketches with it. The program is very experimental in nature.
Nullabillity 2y ago
Relying on a commercial product means you don't have the source code, means you're dependent on where they move in the future, means you're screwed if they shut down.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- voxic11 2y ago
  That isn't true at all. Many commercial products are source code available including this one https://github.com/vvvv/VL.StandardLibs https://github.com/vvvv/VL.StandardLibs
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    That's the standard library. From a quick search, I get zero relevant matches on their account for "runtime", "compiler", "interpreter", or "editor". Looking over https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.html https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.ht... I see a few references to contributing to their libraries, but nothing about compiling the language core itself. And even then, their library distribution mechanism seems to be NuGet, with all of its binary-first warts.
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      There's also a huge difference between "you have the source code" and "you're legally allowed to use it".
- DrSiemer 2y ago
  With this software you'll typically create one-off installations, no maintenance necessary. I don't expect to get the source code for every tool I use in production.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    > I don't expect to get the source code for every tool I use in production. You should. > With this software you'll typically create one-off installations, no maintenance necessary. And then just accept that it's lost afterwards? No thanks.
    - DrSiemer 2y ago
      > You should. In a perfect world, sure. But most of us, alas, have to live in the real world, where these are considered unreasonable expectations. People need to get paid. That includes the developers who work on unusual niche products like this. > it's lost afterwards It's not lost. It just can't be repurposed, in the unlikely situation that VVVV just disappears completely. Which isn't really a problem for most projects in this space, which are often highly experimental and unique.
      - Nullabillity 2y ago
        > But most of us, alas, have to live in the real world, where these are considered unreasonable expectations. Only because they're enabled by people like you.
        DrSiemer 2y ago
        Ok, so enlighten me. How would this open-source everything world work? How would companies protect their investments in research and proprietary technology? How will you guarantee security, besides depending on the nebulous "the community will fix it"? Who's in charge of the direction development will take? How will you prevent fragmentation in different branches? What creates a drive for innovation if you take out competition? How will you enforce quality control? And, most of all, how will developers make money?
alkonaut 2y ago
Free for nonprofits/hobbyists and €500 as soon as you use a piece of software commercially would be very reasonable. But charging the same from someone who doesn’t make a penny as from a company making millions doesn’t make much sense.
- DrSiemer 2y ago
  Someone who doesn't make a penny, like a... Nonprofit?
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    Or a hobbyist
    - DrSiemer 2y ago
      The hobbyist or non-profit CAN use it for free. Until they make a profit, at which point they'll need to pay. Profit usually involves a lot more than a measly €500 (or €762 for gamma) for projects using tools like this. VVVV even offers weekly/monthly subscriptions if you want it cheaper.
      - alkonaut 2y ago
        I mean generally, not in this particular case. People who don't make money are often not eligible for e.g. student licenses, nor can they reasonably pay big money for commercial licenses. The hobbyist is a forgotten segment (but I'd argue it's an important one, as the person who is a hobbyist on the weekends might be influencing purchases during the weeks). Most big-box 90's software has this flaw (AutoCad, Photoshop, etc.).
croes 2y ago
That's vvvv beta, the recent version is gamma. Scroll down further.
- DrSiemer 2y ago
  Ah, I see, it's a bit more for Gamma. Still, 540 + 222 for a year on an individual license won't scare off clients that go for this type of projects. Are all the cool libraries ported over yet?

fsloth 2y ago

If the offering brings any value at all to development of a a commercial offering then 500 € is very reasonable. The point is it needs to improve something in your development flow that’s not available elsewhere, in terms of feature velocity, availability of talent, etc, not just curiosity. QT, Unity etc have price points in this zone and if I remember correctly are higher.

DrSiemer 2y ago
Have you actually seen VVVV? It's nothing like QT or Unity. It's a visual scripting tool, that does not require any real programming knowledge (although it definitely helps if you have some). One of our animators can't write code, but he made some interesting sketches with it. The program is very experimental in nature.

Nullabillity 2y ago

Relying on a commercial product means you don't have the source code, means you're dependent on where they move in the future, means you're screwed if they shut down.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
voxic11 2y ago
That isn't true at all. Many commercial products are source code available including this one https://github.com/vvvv/VL.StandardLibs https://github.com/vvvv/VL.StandardLibs
- Nullabillity 2y ago
  That's the standard library. From a quick search, I get zero relevant matches on their account for "runtime", "compiler", "interpreter", or "editor". Looking over https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.html https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overview.ht... I see a few references to contributing to their libraries, but nothing about compiling the language core itself. And even then, their library distribution mechanism seems to be NuGet, with all of its binary-first warts.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    There's also a huge difference between "you have the source code" and "you're legally allowed to use it".
DrSiemer 2y ago
With this software you'll typically create one-off installations, no maintenance necessary. I don't expect to get the source code for every tool I use in production.
- Nullabillity 2y ago
  > I don't expect to get the source code for every tool I use in production. You should. > With this software you'll typically create one-off installations, no maintenance necessary. And then just accept that it's lost afterwards? No thanks.
  - DrSiemer 2y ago
    > You should. In a perfect world, sure. But most of us, alas, have to live in the real world, where these are considered unreasonable expectations. People need to get paid. That includes the developers who work on unusual niche products like this. > it's lost afterwards It's not lost. It just can't be repurposed, in the unlikely situation that VVVV just disappears completely. Which isn't really a problem for most projects in this space, which are often highly experimental and unique.
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      > But most of us, alas, have to live in the real world, where these are considered unreasonable expectations. Only because they're enabled by people like you.
      - DrSiemer 2y ago
        Ok, so enlighten me. How would this open-source everything world work? How would companies protect their investments in research and proprietary technology? How will you guarantee security, besides depending on the nebulous "the community will fix it"? Who's in charge of the direction development will take? How will you prevent fragmentation in different branches? What creates a drive for innovation if you take out competition? How will you enforce quality control? And, most of all, how will developers make money?

alkonaut 2y ago

Free for nonprofits/hobbyists and €500 as soon as you use a piece of software commercially would be very reasonable. But charging the same from someone who doesn’t make a penny as from a company making millions doesn’t make much sense.

DrSiemer 2y ago
Someone who doesn't make a penny, like a... Nonprofit?
- alkonaut 2y ago
  Or a hobbyist
  - DrSiemer 2y ago
    The hobbyist or non-profit CAN use it for free. Until they make a profit, at which point they'll need to pay. Profit usually involves a lot more than a measly €500 (or €762 for gamma) for projects using tools like this. VVVV even offers weekly/monthly subscriptions if you want it cheaper.
    - alkonaut 2y ago
      I mean generally, not in this particular case. People who don't make money are often not eligible for e.g. student licenses, nor can they reasonably pay big money for commercial licenses. The hobbyist is a forgotten segment (but I'd argue it's an important one, as the person who is a hobbyist on the weekends might be influencing purchases during the weeks). Most big-box 90's software has this flaw (AutoCad, Photoshop, etc.).

croes 2y ago

That's vvvv beta, the recent version is gamma. Scroll down further.

DrSiemer 2y ago
Ah, I see, it's a bit more for Gamma. Still, 540 + 222 for a year on an individual license won't scare off clients that go for this type of projects. Are all the cool libraries ported over yet?