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90% of the time "perfectionism" is pure procrastination. Being self-aware of this fact is a requirement for shipping anything of value.

by ein0p 2y ago

agumonkey 2y ago
I'm not sure to follow. Do you think procrastinating is a better way to reach perfection ? or do you think working too much is equivalent to procrastination (aka a defect) ?
- ein0p 2y ago
  There’s no goal in this case to “reach perfection” on the whole. One just focuses on the stuff they’re good at and find easy to do at the expense of necessarily, but perhaps more difficult and less pleasant work. I’ve been guilty of this. And I will be guilty of this in the future I’m sure. It just helps to be self aware or it could get way out of hand.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    Oh I see, I partially agree. You can yak shave forever, until you find another thing to yak shave. It takes some maturity to balance this and avoid disrupting the project because you optimized non important stuff. I even had a strange lesson. In a team of three, the smartest did try to improve everything and never finished so his contributions were mostly wasted. While the weakest programmer, but one who would focus on solving some tickets in very low quality ways managed to feel less harmful to the team overall.
- antonyt 2y ago
  "Perfectionism" can be just an excuse for avoidant behavior. I'm going to focus on this thing until its perfect. Does it need to be perfect? No, but I enjoy fiddling with this one thing and don't want to think about this other pile of work that's less fun to engage with.
- bbwbsb 2y ago
  People with obsessive tendencies may believe (less than consciously) that avoiding mistakes is the only way they can be loved but that it is okay because they can become perfect 'eventually' with enough work. Finishing a project induces anxiety because it means admitting (to themselves) that it is the best they can do. On team projects this may manifest as hostility towards declaring anything done, criticism of acceptable work of teammates as shoddy, excessive work hours, not finishing things they work on, constantly blowing past deadlines, preoccupation with organizational tools and techniques, etc. It seems like it is about logic, rationality, being optimal, etc., at the surface, but it is fundamentally an emotional reaction (fear) accentuated by a blindspot as to how their emotions affect them. People with these tendencies frequently declare that they are completely rational and not at all driven by emotion, which is due to the blindspot (often denial to maintain the fantasy of becoming perfect so that they can be loved). In short, if children are only loved in highly conditional ways they may learn that they have to be good enough to be loved, and as adults not get anything done because the terror of not being good enough means they cannot accept their own work as good enough.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    As a more “psychological” take, yes this rings true, too. Academic overachievers (I count myself among them, FWIW) are especially prone to this because they condition their self esteem on their ability to “succeed”. It’s a lot harder to succeed at things where you are less confident.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    There are other factors at play to be honest. You live through education system that requires you to perform. You dont get a dev job just because you showed up. You get tested, even after long hard studies. So obviously you're shaped for achieving high. I'd add that some people also thrive under duress. It personally love challenges, so perfectionism is a small step. So what should we do in this field? Coast along and avoid any complexity? Coming from min wage jobs you also struggle to reconciliate those facts.
rconti 2y ago
Every time the topic of perfectionism comes up, a lot of people come out of the woodwork with a weird fetish for arguing that the psychological establishment is using the term wrong. To what end, I'm not sure.

90% of the time "perfectionism" is pure procrastination. Being self-aware of this fact is a requirement for shipping anything of value.

by ein0p 2y ago

90% of the time "perfectionism" is pure procrastination. Being self-aware of this fact is a requirement for shipping anything of value.

agumonkey 2y ago

I'm not sure to follow. Do you think procrastinating is a better way to reach perfection ? or do you think working too much is equivalent to procrastination (aka a defect) ?

ein0p 2y ago
There’s no goal in this case to “reach perfection” on the whole. One just focuses on the stuff they’re good at and find easy to do at the expense of necessarily, but perhaps more difficult and less pleasant work. I’ve been guilty of this. And I will be guilty of this in the future I’m sure. It just helps to be self aware or it could get way out of hand.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Oh I see, I partially agree. You can yak shave forever, until you find another thing to yak shave. It takes some maturity to balance this and avoid disrupting the project because you optimized non important stuff. I even had a strange lesson. In a team of three, the smartest did try to improve everything and never finished so his contributions were mostly wasted. While the weakest programmer, but one who would focus on solving some tickets in very low quality ways managed to feel less harmful to the team overall.
antonyt 2y ago
"Perfectionism" can be just an excuse for avoidant behavior. I'm going to focus on this thing until its perfect. Does it need to be perfect? No, but I enjoy fiddling with this one thing and don't want to think about this other pile of work that's less fun to engage with.
bbwbsb 2y ago
People with obsessive tendencies may believe (less than consciously) that avoiding mistakes is the only way they can be loved but that it is okay because they can become perfect 'eventually' with enough work. Finishing a project induces anxiety because it means admitting (to themselves) that it is the best they can do. On team projects this may manifest as hostility towards declaring anything done, criticism of acceptable work of teammates as shoddy, excessive work hours, not finishing things they work on, constantly blowing past deadlines, preoccupation with organizational tools and techniques, etc. It seems like it is about logic, rationality, being optimal, etc., at the surface, but it is fundamentally an emotional reaction (fear) accentuated by a blindspot as to how their emotions affect them. People with these tendencies frequently declare that they are completely rational and not at all driven by emotion, which is due to the blindspot (often denial to maintain the fantasy of becoming perfect so that they can be loved). In short, if children are only loved in highly conditional ways they may learn that they have to be good enough to be loved, and as adults not get anything done because the terror of not being good enough means they cannot accept their own work as good enough.
- ein0p 2y ago
  As a more “psychological” take, yes this rings true, too. Academic overachievers (I count myself among them, FWIW) are especially prone to this because they condition their self esteem on their ability to “succeed”. It’s a lot harder to succeed at things where you are less confident.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  There are other factors at play to be honest. You live through education system that requires you to perform. You dont get a dev job just because you showed up. You get tested, even after long hard studies. So obviously you're shaped for achieving high. I'd add that some people also thrive under duress. It personally love challenges, so perfectionism is a small step. So what should we do in this field? Coast along and avoid any complexity? Coming from min wage jobs you also struggle to reconciliate those facts.

rconti 2y ago

Every time the topic of perfectionism comes up, a lot of people come out of the woodwork with a weird fetish for arguing that the psychological establishment is using the term wrong. To what end, I'm not sure.