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They're not rooting for a schizophrenic murderer, they're rooting for an agent of chaos and antihero who represents their own alienation, frustration and hatred

by krapp 2y ago

They're not rooting for a schizophrenic murderer, they're rooting for an agent of chaos and antihero who represents their own alienation, frustration and hatred of "the system," a need for catharsis in a world that won't allow them praxis. That interpretation of the Joker has been around for a long time. I mean, America was founded by people who thought the government should be risen up against and torn down with violence every other decade, just to keep things spicy. And that was the rich, white, Christian gentry that the American political system was created to empower and protect. Just imagine how women, non-Christians, non-white immigrants and black people, indigenous people, gay and transgendered people, and everyone else for whom that system has been at best callous and indifferent and at worse actively malicious feels. A misanthropic hatred of society and its constructs is hard-coded into the American zeitgeist, by way of the sanctifying of revolutionary violence as a virtue by the Second Amendment and the ideals of the founders. "Hatred" in this sense has been the primary engine by which America has been forced, incrementally and often against its own instincts, to live up to its own ideals, and the more "free" America becomes, the more the hatred of America and its own hypocrisy and self-contradiction spreads. This is nothing new, it's always been there.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> America was founded by people who thought the government should be risen up against and torn down with violence every other decade What? Source? Constant violent transfers of power was a very minority view.
- krapp 2y ago
  Read the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to William Smith about Shay's rebellion, where we get the prosaic notion of watering the Tree of Liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots. He thought the rebellion was an act of ignorance and failure of society to properly educate and inform the populace, but also felt that regular rebellion itself was necessary for any democracy, and shouldn't even be a crime. Essentially, he wanted to normalize the French Revolution as a regular facet of civil society. Obviously that point of view didn't make it into the framework of the state (apart from, arguably, the Second Amendment) and the same government that created the Second Amendment put Shay's rebellion down, but the ideal has become a foundational part of American culture and beliefs about the nature of liberty and government as inherently hostile to liberty.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to William Smith about Shay's rebellion Nothing in Jefferson’s letter suggests a revolution every other decade, he simply states a preference for insurrection more frequently than “every century and a half” [1]. He also refers to insurrection in general, not French Revolutions; Jefferson supported executing Robespierre for his brutality [2]. In short, one founder believed in insurrection more frequently than every 15 decades. He decried brutal violence in even revolutions he supported. And he joined a government that rejected the notion of violent insurrection. America was not “founded by people who thought the government should be risen up against and torn down with violence every other decade.” [1] https://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/shaysapp/person.do?shortName=thomas_jefferson https://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/shaysapp/person.do?shortName... [2] https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-28-02-0132 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-28-02-0...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I’m not particularly looking for a debate, and think most of what we are picking up on is compatible. I agree that their frustration is the key, but find it fascinating that they will accept the delusion and murder in their agent of change. That their cynicism and frustration is enough to overlook the mayhem rape and murder, and it's consequences for their future. I don’t think I’m as cynical about the innate American spirit, or its exceptionalism. I think these are common human sentiments that wax and wane in different cultures at different times. I think it often be attenuated by factors and narratives outside one’s own hardships, or lack theirof.

by krapp 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> America was founded by people who thought the government should be risen up against and torn down with violence every other decade What? Source? Constant violent transfers of power was a very minority view.

krapp 2y ago
Read the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to William Smith about Shay's rebellion, where we get the prosaic notion of watering the Tree of Liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots. He thought the rebellion was an act of ignorance and failure of society to properly educate and inform the populace, but also felt that regular rebellion itself was necessary for any democracy, and shouldn't even be a crime. Essentially, he wanted to normalize the French Revolution as a regular facet of civil society. Obviously that point of view didn't make it into the framework of the state (apart from, arguably, the Second Amendment) and the same government that created the Second Amendment put Shay's rebellion down, but the ideal has become a foundational part of American culture and beliefs about the nature of liberty and government as inherently hostile to liberty.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to William Smith about Shay's rebellion Nothing in Jefferson’s letter suggests a revolution every other decade, he simply states a preference for insurrection more frequently than “every century and a half” [1]. He also refers to insurrection in general, not French Revolutions; Jefferson supported executing Robespierre for his brutality [2]. In short, one founder believed in insurrection more frequently than every 15 decades. He decried brutal violence in even revolutions he supported. And he joined a government that rejected the notion of violent insurrection. America was not “founded by people who thought the government should be risen up against and torn down with violence every other decade.” [1] https://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/shaysapp/person.do?shortName=thomas_jefferson https://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/shaysapp/person.do?shortName... [2] https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-28-02-0132 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-28-02-0...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I’m not particularly looking for a debate, and think most of what we are picking up on is compatible. I agree that their frustration is the key, but find it fascinating that they will accept the delusion and murder in their agent of change. That their cynicism and frustration is enough to overlook the mayhem rape and murder, and it's consequences for their future. I don’t think I’m as cynical about the innate American spirit, or its exceptionalism. I think these are common human sentiments that wax and wane in different cultures at different times. I think it often be attenuated by factors and narratives outside one’s own hardships, or lack theirof.