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> How long did this server take to build? How much time does it take to maintain and make sure all the security patches are applied each month? How often does i

> How long did this server take to build? How much time does it take to maintain and make sure all the security patches are applied each month? How often does it crash and how much time will be needed to recover it? Do you keep spare parts on hand / how much is the cost of downtime if you have to wait to get a replacement part in the mail? That's got to be part of the break-even equation. All of these are the kinds of things that people say to non-technical people to try to sell cloud. It's all fluff. Do you really think that cloud computing doesn't have security issues, or crashes, or data loss, or that it doesn't involve lots of administration? Thinking that we don't know any better is both disingenuous and a bit insulting.

websap 2y ago
I've managed fleets on cloud providers with over 100k instances, even with all the excellent features through APIs, managing instances can quickly get tricky. Tbh, your comment is kind of insulting and belittles how far we've come ahead in infrastructure management. The cloud is probably more secure than a set of janky servers that you have running in your basement. You can totally automate away 0-days, cves and get access to better security primitives.
- johnklos 2y ago
  If my comment is insulting, I apologize. That was not my intention. My intention was to say that writing sales speak in a technical discussion is insulting to those of us who know better. However, you've now gone out of your way to try to be insulting. You know nothing about me, yet you want to suggest that the cloud is more secure than my servers, and that my servers are "janky"? Please try a little harder to engage in reasonable discourse.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > The cloud is probably more secure than a set of janky servers that you have running in your basement. Apples/Oranges. Your janky cloud[0] is less secure than the servers in my basement, because I'm a mostly competent sysadmin. Cloud lets you trade some operational concerns for higher costs, but not all of them. [0] If you can assume servers run by somebody who doesn't know how to do it properly, obviously I can assume the same about cloud configuration. Have fun with your leaked API keys.
- xyzzy123 2y ago
  Almost by definition you cannot automate away 0-days.
throwaway2016a 2y ago
I've managed both data centers and cloud and IMHO, no, it is not fluff. To take it in order: > doesn't have security issues It sure does, but the matrix of responsibility is very different when it is a hosted service. Note: I am making these comments about Bedrock, which is serverless not in relation to EC2. > It crashes Absolutely, but the recovery profile is not even close to the same. Unless you have a full time person with physical access to your server who can go press buttons. > data loss I'm going to shift this one a tiny bit. What about hardware loss? You need backups regardless. On the cloud when a HDD dies you provision a new one. On premise you need to have the replacement there and ready to swap out (unless you want to wait for shipping). Same with all the other components. So you basically need to buy two of everything. If you have a fleet of servers that's not too bad since presumably they aren't going to all fail on the same component at the same time. But for a single server it is literally double the cost. > doesn't involve lots of administration Again, this is relation to Bedrock with is a managed serverless environment. So there is litterally no administration aside from provisioning and securing access to the resource. You'd have a point if this was running on EC2 or EKS but that's not what my post was about. > Thinking that we don't know any better is both disingenuous and a bit insulting. I'm not saying cloud is perfect in any way, like all things it requires tradeoff, but quite frankly I find you dismissing my 25 years of experience, 1/3 of that has been working in real data centers (including a top-50 internet company at the time) as "fluff" as "disingenuous and a bit insulting".
- amluto 2y ago
  > Unless you have a full time person with physical access to your server who can go press buttons. Every colo facility I’ve used offers “remote hands”. If you need a button pressed or a disk swapped, they will do it, with a fee structure and response time that varies depending on one’s arrangement with the operator. But it’s generally both inexpensive and fast. > What about hardware loss? You need backups regardless. On the cloud when a HDD dies you provision a new one. On premise you need to have the replacement there and ready to swap out (unless you want to wait for shipping). Two of everything may still be cheaper than expensive cloud services. But there’s an obvious middle ground: a service contract that guarantees you spare parts and a technician with a designated amount of notice. This service is widely available and reasonably priced. (Don’t believe the listed total prices on the web sites of big name server vendors — they negotiate substantial discounts, even in small quantities.)
yolovoe 2y ago
You could have gotten rid of the middle paragraph. It’s not fluff. These are valid technical points. Issues most companies would rather (reasonably) pay to not have to deal with. And do you really think you can offer better security and uptime than AWS? Not impossible but very expensive if you’re managing everything from your own hardware. You clearly vastly underestimate all that AWS is taking care of.

websap 2y ago

I've managed fleets on cloud providers with over 100k instances, even with all the excellent features through APIs, managing instances can quickly get tricky. Tbh, your comment is kind of insulting and belittles how far we've come ahead in infrastructure management. The cloud is probably more secure than a set of janky servers that you have running in your basement. You can totally automate away 0-days, cves and get access to better security primitives.

johnklos 2y ago
If my comment is insulting, I apologize. That was not my intention. My intention was to say that writing sales speak in a technical discussion is insulting to those of us who know better. However, you've now gone out of your way to try to be insulting. You know nothing about me, yet you want to suggest that the cloud is more secure than my servers, and that my servers are "janky"? Please try a little harder to engage in reasonable discourse.
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> The cloud is probably more secure than a set of janky servers that you have running in your basement. Apples/Oranges. Your janky cloud[0] is less secure than the servers in my basement, because I'm a mostly competent sysadmin. Cloud lets you trade some operational concerns for higher costs, but not all of them. [0] If you can assume servers run by somebody who doesn't know how to do it properly, obviously I can assume the same about cloud configuration. Have fun with your leaked API keys.
xyzzy123 2y ago
Almost by definition you cannot automate away 0-days.

throwaway2016a 2y ago

I've managed both data centers and cloud and IMHO, no, it is not fluff. To take it in order: > doesn't have security issues It sure does, but the matrix of responsibility is very different when it is a hosted service. Note: I am making these comments about Bedrock, which is serverless not in relation to EC2. > It crashes Absolutely, but the recovery profile is not even close to the same. Unless you have a full time person with physical access to your server who can go press buttons. > data loss I'm going to shift this one a tiny bit. What about hardware loss? You need backups regardless. On the cloud when a HDD dies you provision a new one. On premise you need to have the replacement there and ready to swap out (unless you want to wait for shipping). Same with all the other components. So you basically need to buy two of everything. If you have a fleet of servers that's not too bad since presumably they aren't going to all fail on the same component at the same time. But for a single server it is literally double the cost. > doesn't involve lots of administration Again, this is relation to Bedrock with is a managed serverless environment. So there is litterally no administration aside from provisioning and securing access to the resource. You'd have a point if this was running on EC2 or EKS but that's not what my post was about. > Thinking that we don't know any better is both disingenuous and a bit insulting. I'm not saying cloud is perfect in any way, like all things it requires tradeoff, but quite frankly I find you dismissing my 25 years of experience, 1/3 of that has been working in real data centers (including a top-50 internet company at the time) as "fluff" as "disingenuous and a bit insulting".

amluto 2y ago
> Unless you have a full time person with physical access to your server who can go press buttons. Every colo facility I’ve used offers “remote hands”. If you need a button pressed or a disk swapped, they will do it, with a fee structure and response time that varies depending on one’s arrangement with the operator. But it’s generally both inexpensive and fast. > What about hardware loss? You need backups regardless. On the cloud when a HDD dies you provision a new one. On premise you need to have the replacement there and ready to swap out (unless you want to wait for shipping). Two of everything may still be cheaper than expensive cloud services. But there’s an obvious middle ground: a service contract that guarantees you spare parts and a technician with a designated amount of notice. This service is widely available and reasonably priced. (Don’t believe the listed total prices on the web sites of big name server vendors — they negotiate substantial discounts, even in small quantities.)

yolovoe 2y ago

You could have gotten rid of the middle paragraph. It’s not fluff. These are valid technical points. Issues most companies would rather (reasonably) pay to not have to deal with. And do you really think you can offer better security and uptime than AWS? Not impossible but very expensive if you’re managing everything from your own hardware. You clearly vastly underestimate all that AWS is taking care of.