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Sleep deprivation disrupts memory
- k1ck4ss 2y agonow I feel very bad about going to sleep between 11PM and 1AM and getting up between 5AM and 6AM for many many years now.
- failuser 2y agoWhy? Do you experience memory issues? If you can do that for years and not go insane or break down you must be built different. I know people like that and envy them, but this is not typical.
- sethammons 2y agoSince I became a sleep maintenance insomniac (I fall asleep fine but wake up 5hrs later and generally can't fall back asleep), my memory has gone from phenomenal to abysmal. I struggle to keep things in mind. More than ever, I rely on notes and reminders
- JohnBooty 2y agoThat seems like possibly the hardest kind of insomnia to treat. Is there any treatment for this specific kind of insomnia?
- SoftTalker 2y agoWhen that happens to me it's often because I'm ruminating about something, can't get it out of my mind and relax. If that's what's keeping you up, CBT (cognitive behavorial therapy) techniques can help to stop that thought pattern, or just taking some daily action (any concrete action besides just turning it over in your mind) towards resolving the thing you're thinking about can help. White noise sometimes helps me sleep too, especially after waking up in the middle of the night.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- eggdaft 2y agoMy theory is this is cause by stress hormones. You can get to sleep because you’re so damn exhausted, but you wake up as soon as you’re physically able because of the hormones. The answer is exercise. Aerobic and weights. Three times a week minimum. And for a good amount of time.
- SoftTalker 2y agoI do powerlifting 3x week. No real aerobics, I should add that but I just hate it. Sometimes I’ll drop the weight and do high rep sets which does get my heart pumping.
- eggdaft 2y agoMy completely unscientific analysis: aerobics gets the blood circulating more and enables the body to remove stress hormones from the blood at a faster rate.
- weeksie 2y agoI have issues with that as well, started taking magnesium (both normal, elemental magnesium and magnesium l-threonate) and it's made a world of difference for me.
- SoftTalker 2y ago> this is not typical going to sleep between 11PM and 1AM and getting up between 5AM and 6AM is completely typical for a parent with kids in school. OK 1AM might be pushing it but by the time you eat dinner, help with homework, do chores, get the kids to bed, and take a bit of time for yourself and spouse to decompress, yeah it's easily getting close to 11PM. Then getting up in time to get dressed, get the kids up, make breakfast, get them to school and get yourself to work, you're probably getting out of bed at aroud 6AM or maybe 7AM at the latest.
- bluefirebrand 2y agoLast I spoke to a sleep doctor, I was told that 6-8 hours is enough sleep for a lot of people. That would mean 11-5 is is actually enough sleep, as is 12-6 So really the problem with these times is only the incidents when staying up to 1am, or when getting up at 5 after sleeping at midnight
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y agoYou are grabbing the minimum, it depends on the person. I need 8.5 hours, but last weekend I slept 10 and 10. It was great for recovery, I just didn't have any free time
- failuser 2y ago11PM to 6AM is very different from 1AM to 5AM. Parents of little children who need you to wake up multiple times per night have it worse, IMO. And they often report memory problems and overall mental decline.
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- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y agoI have to force myself to bed at 11 or 1130 because my free time starts between 930 and 10 pm. Lucky I can wake uo at 730, so if I go to bed at 1030pm I'm well rested
- pcurve 2y agoIf you’ve been doing if for many years chances are you are one of those folks who don’t need as much sleep. Apparently there is genetics involved https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gene-identified-people-who-need-little-sleep https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gene-id...
- inanutshellus 2y agoIt's more concerning if he intentionally deprived himself of sleep during adolescence (e.g. forcibly staying up to play video games), as brain development continues through age 25.
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- neilv 2y agoThe Web page is breaking text selection for me until I disable JS.
- jessetemp 2y agoI’ve had the same problem. In my case it was uBlock hiding the full page cookie dialog but the dialog was still disabling text selection. I really wish websites would just respectfully set the minimum by default and let users opt in to the extra tracking. Then reward those users with internet points or something. People go nuts for internet points. Regarding the article itself… I always wonder (while laying awake at night) what impact trains have on people’s mental health. I’m thankfully not close enough to get woken up by them, but they roll through at like 1am, horns blaring at every hint of an intersection. It’s gotta be measurably unhealthy for people living near the tracks
- bowsamic 2y agoPlease keep comments focussed on the content
- neilv 2y agoIn case someone wanted to quote text for discussion, now they know to turn off JS.
- mattgreenrocks 2y agoThe mention of deep sleep being necessary to memory formation is especially interesting to me. I went 5-8 years or so with poor quality sleep. While it is difficult to estimate correctly at home, my Zeo was regularly giving me 15-20m of deep sleep a night and I had a very hard time fixing it. While I performed fine at work, I had a hard time recovering from any sort of physical symptoms (such as tension) and building muscle memory. I certainly felt pretty bad, and it was like things didn't 'stick'. Nowadays I get 40m on average. Still not great but getting better.
- thesuavefactor 2y agoMay I ask what you did to improve your deep sleep?
- mattgreenrocks 2y agoHard to pin it on any one thing unfortunately. I notice it goes up when I’m doing as much as I can of the following: get 20-30m sunlight, talk with friends in person, avoid alcohol, work out, and be more active in building my life (vs having it built for me). Also, doing necessary emotional work with a counselor. All of those IME reduce my low grade anxiety. It’s basically all eating your vegetables stuff. Way more impactful than any supplement or protocol. N=1 and all that. HTH
- justsomehnguy 2y agoNot the OP, but first of all you need enough time. If you constantly have only 5-6 hours of sleep per day then there is nothing what would help. But if you have enough time than you need to try everything, beginning with air quality, noise and light reduction, bedding quality.
- chasebank 2y agoOne of the first episodes in the huberman podcast, he references a study where insomnia was cured in 100% of study participants by taking them camping for a week. I think sleeping is like weight loss, it's really simple but people don't want to do what's necessary. Non-sedentary lifestyle, eat right, wake up and go to sleep with sun, don't use electronics, etc.
- yamrzou 2y ago> To Diba’s surprise, rats that were woken up repeatedly had similar, or even higher, levels of sharp-wave-ripple activity than the rodents that got normal sleep did. But the firing of the ripples was weaker and less organized, showing a marked decrease in repetition of previous firing patterns. I wonder what would happen if their sleep was disrupted in a "regular" way, thus creating new firing patterns..
- JohnBooty 2y agosleep disruption could be used to prevent memories from entering long-term storage, which could be useful for people who have recently experienced something traumatic, such as those with post-traumatic stress disorder This makes sense, but it's hard to see how this would work in practice. You'd have to induce this sleep deprivation right after the traumatic event. "Sorry you watched your house burn down today with your favorite hamster inside. Here's some modafinil so you won't sleep for two days. It will help you not remember this."
- LoganDark 2y agoBleh. At that point just dissociate. By the time you've got PTSD symptoms it's usually too late to simply prevent memories from being recorded.
- bitcoin_anon 2y agoI’ve always wondered why it’s hard to sleep after stress and anxiety. Seems counterproductive, but perhaps it is adaptive.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 01100011 2y ago> people who have recently experienced something traumatic As a parent of a 5 month old baby, I can say that nature has already provided a mechanism for this to work. If it were not for the lack of memories of the first 3 months, I would never agree to have another child. It appears evolution has found a use for this quirk of our brains already.
- swatcoder 2y agoWhen you say "in practice", you're thinking of artificially operationalizing it and how one would force that through medication or whatever. Of course that would be hard to sensibly apply in practice! How would you distinguish a traumatizing experience from a manageably negative one in time to formulate a prescription, how would you prescribe wakefulness to someone who didn't seek it themselves, how do you know how much wakefulness is appropriate or what other trouble you might be causing by artificially amplifying it? But if you step back, the real "in practice" is the thing that bodies already do. Sleep is often a mess after truly shocking experiences, and this mechanism suggests some reason why. For the folk that need scientific studies to justify things that their bodies naturally want to do, this is the study that says it's okay to toss and turn and have weird sleep hours when something bad happens.
- BoredPositron 2y agoIt feels accurate to me. Whenever I experience a manic episode, my sleep patterns are severely disrupted. Often, I don't sleep at all, or I manage only brief 1-2 hour naps. During these periods, my memories become fragmented and disjointed, making it difficult to recall events clearly. The weeks or even months during these episodes blend together, creating a haze of scattered memories.
- methuselah_in 2y agoBecause anything on earth requires rest. There is a limit in universe for everything. Now science I know neuron and all. But that's my perception
- jorisboris 2y agoCan confirm, ever since having children my memory is pretty poor. Baby brains they call it.
- 000ooo000 2y agoHave a 3 month old and I recently embarrassed myself when a coworker asked "how'd you go with problem x yesterday afternoon" and the best I could do is "sorry, I can't remember".
- tantony 2y agoI have personally experienced this. I went to a concert in NY while living in the midwest. I was a pretty broke grad-student at the time and hence opted not to get a hotel for the night before the return flight. The concert ended late and we reached the airport by around 3:30 AM for a 7AM flight. I think I took some naps at the gate before the flight and got very little sleep on the flights. I barely remember anything from that night. The concert itself is mostly blank except for one or two moments. I remember some moments of driving late at night afterwards (getting lost at one point) and having a very late night dinner at an IHOP. I barely remember getting on my connecting flight. Overall a very surreal experience. Now I make it a point to get proper sleep on such trips. What is the point of doing these things anyway if we don't get to keep the memories?
- EvanAnderson 2y agoI've attempted to use the effect strategically. Not sure if it really worked or not. It's certainly not healthy, and it certainly didn't improve the quality of my work, but I've pushed thru some unpleasant times with an eye toward trying not to form long-term memories by way of sleep deprivation.
- liquid_bluing 2y agoSmart move: Sleep deprivation facilitates extinction of implicit fear generalization and physiological response to fear - PubMed https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20889142/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20889142/ "Clinically, trauma-exposed victims often experience acute insomnia, indicating that such insomnia might provide prophylactic benefits in reducing the development of posttraumatic stress disorder via extinction of the fear-magnifying effects of memory."
- whitehexagon 2y agoMy dreams are so vivid, and movie like, that I frequently wake up very tired. My memory is shockingly poor, and I have often wondered if it could be connected to poor quality sleep. I also suffer from Aphantasia and suspect the vivid dreams are somehow compensating for that. Mostly it feels like 40years programming has rewired my brain!
- cljacoby 2y agoI'm 29 years old, and I have definitely noticed my memory getting worse over the last ~5 years. I've always wondered if this is something to do with sleep deprivation, increased stress from work/school, or just the natural effects of getting older.
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- xcv123 2y agoTry doing a 24 hour water fast. It will feel awful during the fast, but you may notice your mind is sharper the next day after a good sleep. Cleans out the cobwebs at a cellular level (autophagy). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/ EDIT: I'm getting rate limited so cannot reply to the comment below. Water fast means only drinking water. Tea or coffee is acceptable if black (meaning without milk or sugar). "Water fasting is a type of fast during which you're not allowed to consume anything except water." I would never do a fast that cuts out water/liquids. That is stupid.
- LtWorf 2y agoHow to die with one simple trick!
- xcv123 2y agoMost people browsing HN would survive 1 - 2 months without food. 24 hours is nothing. Your pot belly has a spare 50,000 calories.
- LtWorf 2y agoIf you read the comment. He said to "water fast", not just skip food, which would be probably fine. Also, not everyone is obese. For not obese active people, it might not be the best.
- josu 2y agoIt's cool to back it up with data, but any parent who has looked after a newborn knows this.
- pedalpete 2y agoThis may be a feature, particularly for mothers. The pain of the sleep deprivation and challenges of the early days of motherhood are not stored strongly, as to not interfere with the desire for more children.
- makeitdouble 2y agoSocially this means less empathy toward current early days/months/years parents though.
- pedalpete 2y agoThis is somewhat true. It isn't as though parents don't understand and remember the pain completely though. It's not amnesia. There is also a very tribal mentality (from what I've seen) in mothers. It's quite a beautiful thing where it is at the same time an exclusive community (you can only be a part of it if you have given birth), at the same time everyone who is a mother is automatically welcomed.
- precompute 2y agoThe key to beating this is being self-aware and figuring out when your brain's maintenance cycles are bleeding into your waking thoughts. And use something to cover your eyes while sleeping, even if it's dark outside.
- eggdaft 2y agoHi Hacker News I’m Captain Obvious and I’m here to tell you (and myself) an uncomfortable truth that most of us kinda know but really can’t face up to. Many of us have sleep problems. We don’t have the healthiest lifestyles. Lots of screen use, being very sedentary, many of us eating bad food (it’s quick! I can get back to thjngs). Denis Nedry is not a mischaracterisation. It’s not true for absolutely everyone but for the vast majority of people the answer is super simple. You need to exercise. Not even a ton. Three times a week will probably do it. Some cardio some weights, each visit to the gym a decent workout. This will cost you £40-£90 a month. That’s about the cost of various Adobe Creative Cloud packages, which enable you to make mediocre graphics on your home personal computer. for the same price as those photo tweaks you can get: improved longevity, improved all round health, protection against RSI and back problems, hugely reduced stress levels, improved levels of focus and happiness and better relationships. Hey, keep it up for a bit and you’ll even get a bit buff and your partner might like that. We all know this and yet we all seek alternative explanations and remedies: eye masks, Vit D, meditation, dietary fads… because they’re so much easier than 2 hour trips to the gym a few times a week. Sure for some people those things are real but for the rest of us it’s just procrastination because: The gym isn’t very fun. Get over it. Put a podcast on, start small, accept that Tuesday night and Thursday night are going to be mostly lost to the gym and just enjoy the journey there and enjoy the music or podcast accompaniment. It’s a tax on living. Pay now or pay much more later, your choice. I struggle with this so hard, but I’m trying ringo, I’m trying, and you should too.
- manmal 2y agoFunnily I saw this just yesterday: „Dihydromyricetin ameliorates memory impairment induced by acute sleep deprivation“ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30876981/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30876981/ Nootropics Depot now retails this (not affiliated).
- consf 2y agoNow reading Why We Sleep: The New Science of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker. Recommend
- eviks 2y agoThat's a very bad book "Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors" https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/
- consf 2y ago[dead]
- vismit2000 2y agoAlso check out the detailed chapter level summary here: https://www.booksummary.pro/Why_We_Sleep_summary.html https://www.booksummary.pro/Why_We_Sleep_summary.html
- consf 2y ago[dead]
- voidhorse 2y agoI've struggled with getting good sleep for much of my adult life. I also feel that I have a terrible long term memory in comparison with some of my peers. It all makes sense now.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y agoNo 303 redirect: https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4924167541825165&w=mVT-1KcQZii_QK2dgrQAC16_eZnAsNfI https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4924167541825165&w=mVT-1Kc...
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 2y agoI'm in my 30s and when I don't sleep enough, my memory is directly affected. I struggle to remember words at times (I speak two languages so I might remember the word in the other language). Then I sleep and everything goes back to normal. It is terrifying every time though: do I have Alzheimer? Comes immediately. But then I sleep and everything is fixed