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I said "If you look at the countries which deploy nuclear, they have/use mostly government run industries." The nuclear industry in these countries is mostly o

by lispm 2y ago

I said "If you look at the countries which deploy nuclear, they have/use mostly government run industries." The nuclear industry in these countries is mostly owned and fullydirected by the government: electricity providers and companies selling&building nuclear powerplants. Nuclear power is especially strong when central governments direct & pay for the the industry, which is far from a free market. China: authoritarian dictatorship with centrally planned economy. France: government owned. Japan: government directed, TEPCO rescued by the government. Nuclear: big government. Centralized. State-owned monopolies. Renewable energy: lots of energy producers, strong local ownership, distributed industry, distributed grid, markets for energy, ...

Herz 2y ago
I understand your perspective, but it's important to address some misconceptions. Firstly, the notion that the nuclear industry is predominantly government-owned and directed is somewhat outdated. While it's true that historically, many countries relied on state-run entities for nuclear power, the landscape is changing. Countries like the United States have a mix of private and public involvement in their nuclear sectors, with significant contributions from private companies. Secondly, the argument that renewable energy operates within a "free market" is misleading. Renewable energy industries, especially solar and wind, receive substantial government subsidies globally. In 2021 alone, global renewable energy subsidies exceeded $120 billion, highlighting that renewables are not thriving purely on market dynamics. Moreover, the renewable sector is heavily influenced by government policies, incentives, and international competition, particularly from countries like China, which dominates the solar panel market through state-supported enterprises. The claim that renewables foster "local ownership" and "distributed industry" oversimplifies the reality. While small-scale renewable projects do exist, the production of critical components, such as solar panels and wind turbines, is concentrated in the hands of a few major players, often backed by significant government support. This centralization can lead to market distortions and dependencies, similar to those seen in the nuclear sector. Lastly, suggesting that support for nuclear power equates to endorsing "big government" overlooks the complexity of energy policy. Effective energy infrastructure, whether nuclear or renewable, requires substantial investment and regulation to ensure safety, reliability, and sustainability. Both sectors depend on a combination of public and private investment and face significant challenges that require coordinated efforts beyond simplistic free-market solutions. In summary, both nuclear and renewable energy sectors involve significant government intervention and investment. The debate should focus on how best to balance these investments to achieve a sustainable and reliable energy future, rather than framing it as a binary choice between free markets and government control. https://www.statista.com/chart/24687/solar-panel-global-market-shares-by-production-steps/ https://www.statista.com/chart/24687/solar-panel-global-mark... https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2023/08/china-leads-race-bottom-deep-sea-mining-critical-minerals/ https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2023/08/china-leads-race-bot...
- lispm 2y ago
  https://www.energy.gov/articles/restoring-americas-competitive-nuclear-energy-advanta https://www.energy.gov/articles/restoring-americas-competiti... "the U.S. Government will move into markets currently dominated by Russian and Chinese State Owned Enterprises (SOE) and recover our position as the world leader in exporting best-in-class nuclear energy technology, and with it, strong non-proliferation standards" Russia and China have state owned enterprises. Now the US government will move into their markets... "The U.S. has ceded its leadership position to countries with state-owned-enterprises, including Russia and China," The US government is the actor who is directing the US industry. > The claim that renewables foster "local ownership" and "distributed industry" oversimplifies the reality. The topic was that "we", Germany, don't want this. We want to strengthen local ownership of energy production. There are a lot of examples here. Nuclear power plants are so far large (large plants are more cost effective) and based on large monopolies (granted or even owned by the government). Example: Before the movement towards renewable energy, the grid and the electricity production was owned by only four large companies each occupying a region in Germany. The electricity grid was then taken away from them and opened to many players. Now (basically) everyone has the right to be a producer and to feed electricity into the grid. Now we have a large landscape of energy producers, with the goal to establish this across the EU. Nuclear power plants (owned by very few companies in protected markets) are dinosaurs in the effort to create dynamic energy markets. Nuclear power demands long-term contracts and guaranteed prices for huge monopolistic players. See for example the new nuclear power plants in the UK... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... "EDF has negotiated a guaranteed fixed price – a "strike price" – for electricity from Hinkley Point C under a government sanctioned Contract for difference (CfD)." https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-seeks-more-uk-government-funding-nuclear-plants-its-edf-builds-sources-2024-01-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-seeks-more-uk... "PARIS, Jan 25 (Reuters) - France wants the British government to contribute more money to two new nuclear plants its state-owned energy utility EDF was contracted to build in the UK, given delays and spiralling costs, three people familiar with the matter told Reuters." A state-owned French company builds for the British government a nuclear power plant. We are not talking about a distorted "free market". There is no market at all, it's all government controlled: building and financing.

by lispm 2y ago

Herz 2y ago

I understand your perspective, but it's important to address some misconceptions. Firstly, the notion that the nuclear industry is predominantly government-owned and directed is somewhat outdated. While it's true that historically, many countries relied on state-run entities for nuclear power, the landscape is changing. Countries like the United States have a mix of private and public involvement in their nuclear sectors, with significant contributions from private companies. Secondly, the argument that renewable energy operates within a "free market" is misleading. Renewable energy industries, especially solar and wind, receive substantial government subsidies globally. In 2021 alone, global renewable energy subsidies exceeded $120 billion, highlighting that renewables are not thriving purely on market dynamics. Moreover, the renewable sector is heavily influenced by government policies, incentives, and international competition, particularly from countries like China, which dominates the solar panel market through state-supported enterprises. The claim that renewables foster "local ownership" and "distributed industry" oversimplifies the reality. While small-scale renewable projects do exist, the production of critical components, such as solar panels and wind turbines, is concentrated in the hands of a few major players, often backed by significant government support. This centralization can lead to market distortions and dependencies, similar to those seen in the nuclear sector. Lastly, suggesting that support for nuclear power equates to endorsing "big government" overlooks the complexity of energy policy. Effective energy infrastructure, whether nuclear or renewable, requires substantial investment and regulation to ensure safety, reliability, and sustainability. Both sectors depend on a combination of public and private investment and face significant challenges that require coordinated efforts beyond simplistic free-market solutions. In summary, both nuclear and renewable energy sectors involve significant government intervention and investment. The debate should focus on how best to balance these investments to achieve a sustainable and reliable energy future, rather than framing it as a binary choice between free markets and government control. https://www.statista.com/chart/24687/solar-panel-global-market-shares-by-production-steps/ https://www.statista.com/chart/24687/solar-panel-global-mark... https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2023/08/china-leads-race-bottom-deep-sea-mining-critical-minerals/ https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2023/08/china-leads-race-bot...

lispm 2y ago
https://www.energy.gov/articles/restoring-americas-competitive-nuclear-energy-advanta https://www.energy.gov/articles/restoring-americas-competiti... "the U.S. Government will move into markets currently dominated by Russian and Chinese State Owned Enterprises (SOE) and recover our position as the world leader in exporting best-in-class nuclear energy technology, and with it, strong non-proliferation standards" Russia and China have state owned enterprises. Now the US government will move into their markets... "The U.S. has ceded its leadership position to countries with state-owned-enterprises, including Russia and China," The US government is the actor who is directing the US industry. > The claim that renewables foster "local ownership" and "distributed industry" oversimplifies the reality. The topic was that "we", Germany, don't want this. We want to strengthen local ownership of energy production. There are a lot of examples here. Nuclear power plants are so far large (large plants are more cost effective) and based on large monopolies (granted or even owned by the government). Example: Before the movement towards renewable energy, the grid and the electricity production was owned by only four large companies each occupying a region in Germany. The electricity grid was then taken away from them and opened to many players. Now (basically) everyone has the right to be a producer and to feed electricity into the grid. Now we have a large landscape of energy producers, with the goal to establish this across the EU. Nuclear power plants (owned by very few companies in protected markets) are dinosaurs in the effort to create dynamic energy markets. Nuclear power demands long-term contracts and guaranteed prices for huge monopolistic players. See for example the new nuclear power plants in the UK... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... "EDF has negotiated a guaranteed fixed price – a "strike price" – for electricity from Hinkley Point C under a government sanctioned Contract for difference (CfD)." https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-seeks-more-uk-government-funding-nuclear-plants-its-edf-builds-sources-2024-01-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-seeks-more-uk... "PARIS, Jan 25 (Reuters) - France wants the British government to contribute more money to two new nuclear plants its state-owned energy utility EDF was contracted to build in the UK, given delays and spiralling costs, three people familiar with the matter told Reuters." A state-owned French company builds for the British government a nuclear power plant. We are not talking about a distorted "free market". There is no market at all, it's all government controlled: building and financing.