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No country should be subjugated to the desires of another. Ukraine wanted to join the EU, that was their provocation? Several paramilitary groups in its home s

No country should be subjugated to the desires of another. Ukraine wanted to join the EU, that was their provocation? Several paramilitary groups in its home soil have been funded by Russia, Russia took over Crimea, Russia has invaded them. Only then was NATO ever on the table. The provocateur is pretty obvious in this case.

lenkite 2y ago
> Ukraine wanted to join the EU, that was their provocation? Hello, 2014 American sponsored, Nuland-designed Maidan coup which got rid of an elected President whose election had been formally and successfully vetted by EU observers, following which a fifth of Ukraine's ethnic Russian regions rebelled. Remember - Nuland was so personally involved that she was handing over food and drinks to "protestors". If this had been a U.S. ally, there would have been howls of foreign interference 24x7 on TV. Ukraine even put joining NATO as a constitutional guideline and part of their National Security Strategy in 2020-21! Imagine Mexico as a member of a military Anti-USA coalition - you can bet that there would an American invasion the next year for "regime change". > No country should be subjugated to the desires of another. Remove U.S. military bases from Cuba, Iraq and Syria - and then talk about "subjugation" to the desires of another nation. The sanctimonious hypocrisy of Americans always astonishes non-NATO citizens.
- philistine 2y ago
  You try to justify an invasion of Ukraine by explaining what Russia perceived as problems. Dude, we know Russia’s position on the matter: we don’t believe it is enough. Giving water to protestors, and the existence of Gunatanamo do not make Putin correct.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    Hey, did the man in the telly ever tell you about how messy the process of setting Ukraine's borders was back in 1990? Independent countries had to be carved out from the corpse of the USSR, and how does one set their borders? Well, one convenient way would be to use some existing administrative boundary, and this Ukraine was created within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR... Except that it wasn't that easy. Even back then there as debate over what status Crimea should have. The region already was an autonomy, and even held elections and elected a president. And then got attached to Ukraine anyway and had its independence obliterated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Meshkov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Meshkov
    - philistine 2y ago
      Sure, because there is not 100% consensus on the political situation of Crimea, that gives the right of Russia to invade Ukraine and kill people as much as it wants. There is a mechanism to resolve those matters: referendums. Once again your arguments are left wanting. Messy and difficult internal politics surrounding fundamental issues does not allow the invasion of a neighbour. Crimea didn't need daddy Russia to forcibly integrate it into the Russian state. It could have done that all its own if it had wanted. The fact Russia has to lower itself to violence to integrate territory illustrates how poor its logic is.
      - riehwvfbk 2y ago
        Funny, because just such a referendum was held. And ignored. And I'm not talking about the recent one, but the one back in the early 1990s.
        racional 2y ago
        It wasn't ignored -- it got a lot of attention all right. But then 2014 happened, and everything changed. Once you choose to ally yourself with a foreign power that is aggressively attacking the larger nation you are attempting to secede from -- as the political establishment of the ASSR did at the time -- your moral claim to independence (a key being always an assurance that you will never do harm to that nation) is instantly invalidated. And when that foreign power you are seeking to ally with also happens to be the one that genocided a large chunk of your indigenous population -- not centuries ago; but in living memory -- that claim is nullified even further.
- racional 2y ago
  Hello, there was no "Nuland-designed Maidan coup", and no, there was no indigenous violent rebellion in the Eastern regions. Nuland was so personally involved that she was handing over food and drinks to "protestors" And still she had no effect on the actual course of events. The whole Nuland story exists entirely in the lefty/peacenik blogosphere; but it's a complete non-story within Ukraine. You will literally not find a single educated person who gives any credence to it (outside the usual 5 percent of population who are ready to go off and believe anything). See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - lenkite 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - racional 2y ago
      I see Americans will ... You have no bleeding idea what I am. But you are welcome to be disgusted by whatever you like.
    - Paradigma11 2y ago
      Nuland giving out cakes and comingling with protestors represents major culpability in a coup? So those protestors didn't riot because Yanukovych killed the EU association agreement a day before signing? An agreement that he ran his election platform on and replaced it with a customs union with Belarus and Russia. Btw it was Yanukovych who proposed making Yatsenyuk as prime minister on Jan 25. FSB thug Igor Girkin himself said that he and his men started the Donbas conflict when they occupied Sloviansk. The first prime minister of Donetsk Alexander Borodai once said in a phone call that his loyalty was to one and one nation only, the Russian Federation.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  How many countries has NATO invaded? - Bosnia (92-95, air and naval campaign) - Kosovo (99, air campaign) - Afghanistan (ISAF, technically post-invasion, 03-14) - Libya (11, air campaign) If Russia is worried about NATO aggression, that doesn't seem to be supported by facts.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > How many countries has NATO invaded? Uh, if we’re literally counting air campaigns as invasion better not tally up Wagner’s score. Beyond moronic to frame invading Ukraine as defensive. It’s as inexcusable as us fucking into Iraq.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      "Unilaterally violated territorial sovereignty" is probably a more objective way to put it. Although there's the argument the Kurds invited us into Iraq... (before we abandoned them for the 3rd time)
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lenkite 2y ago

> Ukraine wanted to join the EU, that was their provocation? Hello, 2014 American sponsored, Nuland-designed Maidan coup which got rid of an elected President whose election had been formally and successfully vetted by EU observers, following which a fifth of Ukraine's ethnic Russian regions rebelled. Remember - Nuland was so personally involved that she was handing over food and drinks to "protestors". If this had been a U.S. ally, there would have been howls of foreign interference 24x7 on TV. Ukraine even put joining NATO as a constitutional guideline and part of their National Security Strategy in 2020-21! Imagine Mexico as a member of a military Anti-USA coalition - you can bet that there would an American invasion the next year for "regime change". > No country should be subjugated to the desires of another. Remove U.S. military bases from Cuba, Iraq and Syria - and then talk about "subjugation" to the desires of another nation. The sanctimonious hypocrisy of Americans always astonishes non-NATO citizens.

philistine 2y ago
You try to justify an invasion of Ukraine by explaining what Russia perceived as problems. Dude, we know Russia’s position on the matter: we don’t believe it is enough. Giving water to protestors, and the existence of Gunatanamo do not make Putin correct.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  Hey, did the man in the telly ever tell you about how messy the process of setting Ukraine's borders was back in 1990? Independent countries had to be carved out from the corpse of the USSR, and how does one set their borders? Well, one convenient way would be to use some existing administrative boundary, and this Ukraine was created within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR... Except that it wasn't that easy. Even back then there as debate over what status Crimea should have. The region already was an autonomy, and even held elections and elected a president. And then got attached to Ukraine anyway and had its independence obliterated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Meshkov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Meshkov
  - philistine 2y ago
    Sure, because there is not 100% consensus on the political situation of Crimea, that gives the right of Russia to invade Ukraine and kill people as much as it wants. There is a mechanism to resolve those matters: referendums. Once again your arguments are left wanting. Messy and difficult internal politics surrounding fundamental issues does not allow the invasion of a neighbour. Crimea didn't need daddy Russia to forcibly integrate it into the Russian state. It could have done that all its own if it had wanted. The fact Russia has to lower itself to violence to integrate territory illustrates how poor its logic is.
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      Funny, because just such a referendum was held. And ignored. And I'm not talking about the recent one, but the one back in the early 1990s.
      - racional 2y ago
        It wasn't ignored -- it got a lot of attention all right. But then 2014 happened, and everything changed. Once you choose to ally yourself with a foreign power that is aggressively attacking the larger nation you are attempting to secede from -- as the political establishment of the ASSR did at the time -- your moral claim to independence (a key being always an assurance that you will never do harm to that nation) is instantly invalidated. And when that foreign power you are seeking to ally with also happens to be the one that genocided a large chunk of your indigenous population -- not centuries ago; but in living memory -- that claim is nullified even further.
racional 2y ago
Hello, there was no "Nuland-designed Maidan coup", and no, there was no indigenous violent rebellion in the Eastern regions. Nuland was so personally involved that she was handing over food and drinks to "protestors" And still she had no effect on the actual course of events. The whole Nuland story exists entirely in the lefty/peacenik blogosphere; but it's a complete non-story within Ukraine. You will literally not find a single educated person who gives any credence to it (outside the usual 5 percent of population who are ready to go off and believe anything). See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  [flagged]
- lenkite 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - racional 2y ago
    I see Americans will ... You have no bleeding idea what I am. But you are welcome to be disgusted by whatever you like.
  - Paradigma11 2y ago
    Nuland giving out cakes and comingling with protestors represents major culpability in a coup? So those protestors didn't riot because Yanukovych killed the EU association agreement a day before signing? An agreement that he ran his election platform on and replaced it with a customs union with Belarus and Russia. Btw it was Yanukovych who proposed making Yatsenyuk as prime minister on Jan 25. FSB thug Igor Girkin himself said that he and his men started the Donbas conflict when they occupied Sloviansk. The first prime minister of Donetsk Alexander Borodai once said in a phone call that his loyalty was to one and one nation only, the Russian Federation.
ethbr1 2y ago
How many countries has NATO invaded? - Bosnia (92-95, air and naval campaign) - Kosovo (99, air campaign) - Afghanistan (ISAF, technically post-invasion, 03-14) - Libya (11, air campaign) If Russia is worried about NATO aggression, that doesn't seem to be supported by facts.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > How many countries has NATO invaded? Uh, if we’re literally counting air campaigns as invasion better not tally up Wagner’s score. Beyond moronic to frame invading Ukraine as defensive. It’s as inexcusable as us fucking into Iraq.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    "Unilaterally violated territorial sovereignty" is probably a more objective way to put it. Although there's the argument the Kurds invited us into Iraq... (before we abandoned them for the 3rd time)

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]