4 ms·

Just another thing Germany managed to totally fuck up. I can't even remember something that was done well for the last, what, 5-10 years? All the politicians we

Just another thing Germany managed to totally fuck up. I can't even remember something that was done well for the last, what, 5-10 years? All the politicians we have are a disgrace.

decremental 2y ago
[dead]
surfingdino 2y ago
Go on, give them some credit... they signed a deal with Russia to divide Eastern Europe, financed Russian wars, destroyed stability of Europe by forcing idiotic policies, and allowed rise of far right at home. That's something...
- AllegedAlec 2y ago
  They're currently more succesful in fucking up Europe than during their French camping trip in 1939.
- netsharc 2y ago
  Points 1 and 2 sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I can agree with points 3 and 4, however unplanned it was by the rulers. Merkel and her finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble were stupid believers in running a country/continent like a family or factory (micro- instead of macroeconomics). If you're in debt, you gotta save. With the Euro crisis and PIIGS (anyone here old enough to remember PIIGS?) inflation problem (caused by the currency pegging masked as a single currency, btw), the continent had a lot of problems. And so Merkel as the de-facto ruler of the EU told everyone to cut social services, social benefits, etc, instead of doing stimulus packages like the Obama admin. The results were more unemployment and destitution, even suicides[1]. And when Merkel decided to show her humane side and allowed Syrians to settle in Germany, it was morally a great move which I agree (how can we call ourselves human if we refuse shelter to humans who are being shot at and bombed - well one way to do it is to not treat them as humans and classify them in our brains, all of them, as cowards (for running away instead of fighting) and lazy benefits-seekers)), but of course for the average Joe European who's been told for many years "There's no money, we have to save", to suddenly hear "We're a prosperous continent, we can do it.", this sounds like a huge truckload of shit. And the half-hearted policy of just sticking these refugees in makeshift camps and probably no budget in proper integration (and TBH, there's probably lazy refugees too, but then again, wouldn't you lose motivation against bureaucracies that don't let you work, confuse you in a language/culture foreign to yours, etc, even though you fought your way out of a warzone on a precarious journey) didn't make it any better. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-27796628 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-27796628
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Let me introduce you to this fine German politician https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der who "Since leaving public office, Schröder has worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Nord Stream AG, Rosneft, and Gazprom. (...) He was chairman of the board of Nord Stream AG and of Rosneft but in 2022 resigned from the latter and opted not to join the board of Russian state-run gas company Gazprom. (...) In his last days in office in 2005 he signed a deal between Germany and Russian state-owned Gazprom to build Nord Stream 1 before leaving office and almost immediately joining the pipeline company’s board." A politician of his calibre cannot function without an extensive support network and connections across the political spectrum. There were a lot of people helping him. It was and still is a broad, cross-party support based on the German Ostpolitik from 1970s. That gives him and the people around him a lot of influence over German and European politics. The Nord Stream deal was designed to make Europe dependent on Russian natural resources and weaken position of Eastern Europe. It was opposed by Eastern European countries who saw it quite rightly as the next Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac... in disguise. But even if we discard their opinions, here's a document prepared by the European Parliament in 2008 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/dv/afet_01042008_security/afet_01042008_securityen.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/... Nobody in Europe was fooled by Russians, but German politicians could not or did not want to hear it. Germans kept rejecting all Eastern European objections to the deal and other decisions that followed, including Nord Stream 2. German politicians crossed the line and began implementing Russian foreign policy in Europe. In 20214 Ukraine paid the price of German Ostpolitik. Here's a good summary of how Germany played this game: https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-inc-played-russian-roulette-and-lost-ukraine-war-energy-gas-trade/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-inc-played-russian-r... and here's an early summary of Germany's behaviour https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-04-03/german-reaction-to-russian-ukrainian-conflict-shock-and https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-04-... And recently, this information came to light https://www.yahoo.com/news/angela-merkel-concealed-information-russia-174619023.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/angela-merkel-concealed-informati... You cannot have united Europe with a significant member undermining its principles by making it dependent on energy supplies from an aggressive enemy and being an advocate of the enemy's interests. German politicians are compromised to the point where they just cannot see how compromised they are.
glamotlocoto 2y ago
We still have a great standard of lifing. We legalized, this was a great success. Don't be so negative
- throw80808013 2y ago
  see the denial?
- snehk 2y ago
  > We still have a great standard of lifing. Which has gone down in the last 10 years. There's absolutely no indication that anything in this regard will improve. All metrics show a downwards trend. Be it homeownership, financial security or even life expectancy. So it's basically just like saying "I inherited billions and I'm still not completely broke. My financial decisions must be awesome".
  - netsharc 2y ago
    With climate change worsening, I can't see this improving. Yeah okay right-leaning governments letting corporations getting away with too much shit and shoving more neoliberalism down our throats[1] is probably more to blame... That's why I fear rightwing populism will keep rising. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-...
  - Propelloni 2y ago
    Gloom and doom seems to be the sentiment of the day (I feel it, too. I fear a relapse into authoritarian, racist isolationism and protectionism. It makes me depressed.) but with regards to quality of life all available numbers point in a different direction. Granted, the most up-to-date dataset [1] does not draw a simple graph, but it shows a pretty promising development across twelve areas. Combined it looks pretty good to me. Which metrics do you refer to? Compared to other nations the situation gets even more confusing. The OECD Better Life index [2] places Germany consistently above average. The index is compiled from available data and surveys conducted in the corresponding country. So Germans feel everything is doomed but when asked they rank themselves in most metrics concerning quality of life above average. That does not make sense and I doubt the numbers are wrong. So why are Germans so gloomy? Is it the Mittelschicht-Problem? That's a serious question, because I don't know and it is important. [1] https://www.gut-leben-in-deutschland.de https://www.gut-leben-in-deutschland.de [2] https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/de/countries/germany-de/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/de/countries/germany-de/
throw80808013 2y ago
As much as the politicians the people are to blame. Since at least 10 years whenever anyone becomes critical of anything this is met with denial. You could just vote for someone else, even if the government wants to tell you you're a bad person or rightwing if you do.
- Gasp0de 2y ago
  No one is telling anyone that they are a bad person for voting "someone else". However, there are some political parties (AFD, NPD) that are led by actual Nazis and that have mass deportation of foreigners as their main goals. If you vote for these people, then yes, you are a bad person and undeniably (very) rightwing.
  - grncdr 2y ago
    > No one is telling anyone that they are a bad person for voting "someone else". > If you vote for these people, then yes, you are a bad person As a foreigner living in Germany, it’s been incredibly disheartening to become more aware of the level of political discourse here. AfD will continue making huge gains (which I’m absolutely worried about) as long as their opponents continue to reason like toddlers.
    - Gasp0de 2y ago
      So arguing that someone voting for a (court ruled) nazi who wants mass deportation is a bad person is arguing like a toddler?
    - aniviacat 2y ago
      The AfD still does not believe in man-made climate change. How are you supposed to reason about that? If AfD members ignore obvious scientific developments, you can't really do much more than present yet another paper saying that yes, man-made climate change is indeed a thing, just for then to ignore it, too. You cannot reason with someone who does not want to be reasoned with. You can claim that many policies by the AfD are made in good faith. (I don't believe that, but I'd be willing to entertain the thought.) But once you get to something like if climate change exists, there isn't really any way you can argue with reason anymore. You are met with pure denial. Denial, which is used as a base for action that is clearly and actively destructive.
croes 2y ago
You do realize the main culprit is the industry, or do you belive they didn't know the projekcts were fake? Same with the botched constructions projects like BER and Stuttgart21. The government was reduced to be only a contractor because private companies are sop much better and cheaper at doing things /s.
- m000 2y ago
  You should realize too that the politicians may have been well aware that the industry is faking. In the grand scheme, this is (yet) an(other) elaborate scam against the public. Politicians outsource the responsibility of implementing policies to the "market" and pretend they're doing something, just to get votes. The "market" outsources what they promised to implement to the lowest bidder in some distant land with no oversight. And then they can all blame it to "China".
  - croes 2y ago
    And why did politicians outsource that to the market? It's not like the industry and certain media companies lobbied for it big time claiming the market is so much better. Just look who they voted in Germany for the EU. The same party that blocked the energy transition with faulty studies, made Germany dependent on russian resources, botched the nuclear exit leading to large compensation payments, installed a debt break in the constitution that is based on a faulty Excel calculation etc. Seems to me like people want to get fooled. As soon you tell them the truth they listen to those who promise easy solutions for complex problems.
    - kadkadels 2y ago
      I agree. It seems to me that people just ... like to forget stuff like that. They just want someone else in charge. And now with the advent of TikTok a certain party frequently targets young people and tells them that there are easy solutions to their problems. Sad thing is, other parties don't seem to get that they need to be where the young people are and provide content that matches what they like to see. I can also only recommend to read "the invisible doctrine" by goerge monbiot. Sad enough that I can't think of a similar book in German. Or a newspaper that would be able to match the Guardian, for example.
la_fayette 2y ago
[flagged]
- Phelinofist 2y ago
  Thank you for this absolutely useless comment. Have a nice day.
  - la_fayette 2y ago
    [flagged]

Just another thing Germany managed to totally fuck up. I can't even remember something that was done well for the last, what, 5-10 years? All the politicians we have are a disgrace.

decremental 2y ago

[dead]

surfingdino 2y ago

Go on, give them some credit... they signed a deal with Russia to divide Eastern Europe, financed Russian wars, destroyed stability of Europe by forcing idiotic policies, and allowed rise of far right at home. That's something...

AllegedAlec 2y ago
They're currently more succesful in fucking up Europe than during their French camping trip in 1939.
netsharc 2y ago
Points 1 and 2 sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I can agree with points 3 and 4, however unplanned it was by the rulers. Merkel and her finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble were stupid believers in running a country/continent like a family or factory (micro- instead of macroeconomics). If you're in debt, you gotta save. With the Euro crisis and PIIGS (anyone here old enough to remember PIIGS?) inflation problem (caused by the currency pegging masked as a single currency, btw), the continent had a lot of problems. And so Merkel as the de-facto ruler of the EU told everyone to cut social services, social benefits, etc, instead of doing stimulus packages like the Obama admin. The results were more unemployment and destitution, even suicides[1]. And when Merkel decided to show her humane side and allowed Syrians to settle in Germany, it was morally a great move which I agree (how can we call ourselves human if we refuse shelter to humans who are being shot at and bombed - well one way to do it is to not treat them as humans and classify them in our brains, all of them, as cowards (for running away instead of fighting) and lazy benefits-seekers)), but of course for the average Joe European who's been told for many years "There's no money, we have to save", to suddenly hear "We're a prosperous continent, we can do it.", this sounds like a huge truckload of shit. And the half-hearted policy of just sticking these refugees in makeshift camps and probably no budget in proper integration (and TBH, there's probably lazy refugees too, but then again, wouldn't you lose motivation against bureaucracies that don't let you work, confuse you in a language/culture foreign to yours, etc, even though you fought your way out of a warzone on a precarious journey) didn't make it any better. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-27796628 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-27796628
- surfingdino 2y ago
  Let me introduce you to this fine German politician https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der who "Since leaving public office, Schröder has worked for Russian state-owned energy companies, including Nord Stream AG, Rosneft, and Gazprom. (...) He was chairman of the board of Nord Stream AG and of Rosneft but in 2022 resigned from the latter and opted not to join the board of Russian state-run gas company Gazprom. (...) In his last days in office in 2005 he signed a deal between Germany and Russian state-owned Gazprom to build Nord Stream 1 before leaving office and almost immediately joining the pipeline company’s board." A politician of his calibre cannot function without an extensive support network and connections across the political spectrum. There were a lot of people helping him. It was and still is a broad, cross-party support based on the German Ostpolitik from 1970s. That gives him and the people around him a lot of influence over German and European politics. The Nord Stream deal was designed to make Europe dependent on Russian natural resources and weaken position of Eastern Europe. It was opposed by Eastern European countries who saw it quite rightly as the next Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac... in disguise. But even if we discard their opinions, here's a document prepared by the European Parliament in 2008 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/dv/afet_01042008_security/afet_01042008_securityen.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/... Nobody in Europe was fooled by Russians, but German politicians could not or did not want to hear it. Germans kept rejecting all Eastern European objections to the deal and other decisions that followed, including Nord Stream 2. German politicians crossed the line and began implementing Russian foreign policy in Europe. In 20214 Ukraine paid the price of German Ostpolitik. Here's a good summary of how Germany played this game: https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-inc-played-russian-roulette-and-lost-ukraine-war-energy-gas-trade/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-inc-played-russian-r... and here's an early summary of Germany's behaviour https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-04-03/german-reaction-to-russian-ukrainian-conflict-shock-and https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-04-... And recently, this information came to light https://www.yahoo.com/news/angela-merkel-concealed-information-russia-174619023.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/angela-merkel-concealed-informati... You cannot have united Europe with a significant member undermining its principles by making it dependent on energy supplies from an aggressive enemy and being an advocate of the enemy's interests. German politicians are compromised to the point where they just cannot see how compromised they are.

glamotlocoto 2y ago

We still have a great standard of lifing. We legalized, this was a great success. Don't be so negative

throw80808013 2y ago
see the denial?
snehk 2y ago
> We still have a great standard of lifing. Which has gone down in the last 10 years. There's absolutely no indication that anything in this regard will improve. All metrics show a downwards trend. Be it homeownership, financial security or even life expectancy. So it's basically just like saying "I inherited billions and I'm still not completely broke. My financial decisions must be awesome".
- netsharc 2y ago
  With climate change worsening, I can't see this improving. Yeah okay right-leaning governments letting corporations getting away with too much shit and shoving more neoliberalism down our throats[1] is probably more to blame... That's why I fear rightwing populism will keep rising. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-...
- Propelloni 2y ago
  Gloom and doom seems to be the sentiment of the day (I feel it, too. I fear a relapse into authoritarian, racist isolationism and protectionism. It makes me depressed.) but with regards to quality of life all available numbers point in a different direction. Granted, the most up-to-date dataset [1] does not draw a simple graph, but it shows a pretty promising development across twelve areas. Combined it looks pretty good to me. Which metrics do you refer to? Compared to other nations the situation gets even more confusing. The OECD Better Life index [2] places Germany consistently above average. The index is compiled from available data and surveys conducted in the corresponding country. So Germans feel everything is doomed but when asked they rank themselves in most metrics concerning quality of life above average. That does not make sense and I doubt the numbers are wrong. So why are Germans so gloomy? Is it the Mittelschicht-Problem? That's a serious question, because I don't know and it is important. [1] https://www.gut-leben-in-deutschland.de https://www.gut-leben-in-deutschland.de [2] https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/de/countries/germany-de/ https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/de/countries/germany-de/

throw80808013 2y ago

As much as the politicians the people are to blame. Since at least 10 years whenever anyone becomes critical of anything this is met with denial. You could just vote for someone else, even if the government wants to tell you you're a bad person or rightwing if you do.

Gasp0de 2y ago
No one is telling anyone that they are a bad person for voting "someone else". However, there are some political parties (AFD, NPD) that are led by actual Nazis and that have mass deportation of foreigners as their main goals. If you vote for these people, then yes, you are a bad person and undeniably (very) rightwing.
- grncdr 2y ago
  > No one is telling anyone that they are a bad person for voting "someone else". > If you vote for these people, then yes, you are a bad person As a foreigner living in Germany, it’s been incredibly disheartening to become more aware of the level of political discourse here. AfD will continue making huge gains (which I’m absolutely worried about) as long as their opponents continue to reason like toddlers.
  - Gasp0de 2y ago
    So arguing that someone voting for a (court ruled) nazi who wants mass deportation is a bad person is arguing like a toddler?
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    The AfD still does not believe in man-made climate change. How are you supposed to reason about that? If AfD members ignore obvious scientific developments, you can't really do much more than present yet another paper saying that yes, man-made climate change is indeed a thing, just for then to ignore it, too. You cannot reason with someone who does not want to be reasoned with. You can claim that many policies by the AfD are made in good faith. (I don't believe that, but I'd be willing to entertain the thought.) But once you get to something like if climate change exists, there isn't really any way you can argue with reason anymore. You are met with pure denial. Denial, which is used as a base for action that is clearly and actively destructive.

croes 2y ago

You do realize the main culprit is the industry, or do you belive they didn't know the projekcts were fake? Same with the botched constructions projects like BER and Stuttgart21. The government was reduced to be only a contractor because private companies are sop much better and cheaper at doing things /s.

m000 2y ago
You should realize too that the politicians may have been well aware that the industry is faking. In the grand scheme, this is (yet) an(other) elaborate scam against the public. Politicians outsource the responsibility of implementing policies to the "market" and pretend they're doing something, just to get votes. The "market" outsources what they promised to implement to the lowest bidder in some distant land with no oversight. And then they can all blame it to "China".
- croes 2y ago
  And why did politicians outsource that to the market? It's not like the industry and certain media companies lobbied for it big time claiming the market is so much better. Just look who they voted in Germany for the EU. The same party that blocked the energy transition with faulty studies, made Germany dependent on russian resources, botched the nuclear exit leading to large compensation payments, installed a debt break in the constitution that is based on a faulty Excel calculation etc. Seems to me like people want to get fooled. As soon you tell them the truth they listen to those who promise easy solutions for complex problems.
  - kadkadels 2y ago
    I agree. It seems to me that people just ... like to forget stuff like that. They just want someone else in charge. And now with the advent of TikTok a certain party frequently targets young people and tells them that there are easy solutions to their problems. Sad thing is, other parties don't seem to get that they need to be where the young people are and provide content that matches what they like to see. I can also only recommend to read "the invisible doctrine" by goerge monbiot. Sad enough that I can't think of a similar book in German. Or a newspaper that would be able to match the Guardian, for example.

la_fayette 2y ago

[flagged]

Phelinofist 2y ago
Thank you for this absolutely useless comment. Have a nice day.
- la_fayette 2y ago
  [flagged]