4 ms·

He didn not create $ 450B in value. What does that even mean. Maybe he helped to create $ 450B of hype-dollars, but this is not real money, and for certain not

by shafyy 2y ago

He didn not create $ 450B in value. What does that even mean. Maybe he helped to create $ 450B of hype-dollars, but this is not real money, and for certain not "value". And let's not forget that the people doing the real, hard work are not seeing any of this "value" while he cashes real hard cash.

rapsey 2y ago
Market cap of the stock.
- shafyy 2y ago
  Sure, but the market cap of the stock doesn't mean that this is some kind of real money or value (using value in the sense of value for society etc., not "valuation of the company). It's fictional. If everyone tried to cash out, that market cap would go to zero faster than Musk can whip out his dick on his G-5.
  - rapsey 2y ago
    You are projecting you own views and opinions on a metric and language that is completely standard in business and investing. You are free to do that but it will not make you win any arguments.
  - refurb 2y ago
    If ever traded their USD for another asset the value of USD would fall to zero too. Does that mean USD is not real money either?
vasco 2y ago
AFAIK all employees have some stock options or RSUs, I knew someone doing customer support for them in europe and even for those roles you get some.
- shafyy 2y ago
  It's not about if they also have stock or not, it's about the humongous payment gap between employees and the top dog.
  - vasco 2y ago
    You said not seeing "any value". If you said it was very far apart I wouldn't have commented. But employees do benefit in a small part from the company growing.
    - shafyy 2y ago
      Ok, not any value was of course hyperbole. But putting in comparison to the cash Musk gets, it's fair to say it's almost nothing.
bottlepalm 2y ago
He makes the 'real' decisions daily that the company succeeds or fails by. I guess we can play games all day of what 'real' is. Though 'real hard cash' is a crap store of value. Let's graph the value of the dollar versus the value of Tesla stock over 20 years.
- shafyy 2y ago
  The fact that top managers receive a ton of cash because they make "decisions" and "bear the responsible" is bullshit made up by billionaires to justify their ridiculousy high incomes and wealth. In fact, they don't give two shits about their responsibility - they cash in as much as they can for a few years, and if things go south, they jump ship to the next one. Of course, Musk is not a typical career CEO. But still, he has a serious interest that his contribution to the path of Tesla is extremely overrated.
aikinai 2y ago
If he didn't create $450B in value, then his pay package isn't $56B as everyone is quoting. Those are valued in the same "hype-dollars." The "He didn't do anything valuable anyway" and "His pay package is too valuable" arguments are in direct contradiction.
- shafyy 2y ago
  The market cap of a company is not real money. However, owning a significant share of the shares can help rich people get real money without any real downsides. For example, Musk (any most billionaires) use their stock as collateral and take out super low interest loans against that stock. They don't pay any income tax on this loan, since it's not income. On the contrary, they can deduct the interest rate payments from their tax bill. This money they then use to buy property and other wealth. So, they make more money with not really their money (debt) and they use all tricks in the book to minimize their tax burden - which is much lower compared to (relatively speaking) low and middle class folks who earn most of their money through income and pay high income taxes. So, you see, even though his pay package is in Tesla stock and its value therefore "not real", he uses it to get very real cash using it. In finance this is called "leverage".
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    In fact, things get rather bad when that money is realized at once. Hype is accurate.
  - smsm42 2y ago
    Nobody pays ang income tax on loans, it's not unique to Musk. And loans need to be returned, usually.
bamboozled 2y ago
I did a simple calculation just for the lolz: In 2018, Tesla employed ~ 14800 people, 56 billion divided by 14800 = 3783783. So apparently in 2018, for every staff member he apparently added ~ $3.7 million dollars worth of value that he should be compensated for in the form of a bonus? It's ridiculous.
- refurb 2y ago
  Why do you assume that increased value comes purely from employees? If Musk buys a robot that can weld a body 2x more efficient (installed and maintained by an external vendor), increasing the value of the company, which employee created that value?

by shafyy 2y ago

rapsey 2y ago

Market cap of the stock.

shafyy 2y ago
Sure, but the market cap of the stock doesn't mean that this is some kind of real money or value (using value in the sense of value for society etc., not "valuation of the company). It's fictional. If everyone tried to cash out, that market cap would go to zero faster than Musk can whip out his dick on his G-5.
- rapsey 2y ago
  You are projecting you own views and opinions on a metric and language that is completely standard in business and investing. You are free to do that but it will not make you win any arguments.
- refurb 2y ago
  If ever traded their USD for another asset the value of USD would fall to zero too. Does that mean USD is not real money either?

vasco 2y ago

AFAIK all employees have some stock options or RSUs, I knew someone doing customer support for them in europe and even for those roles you get some.

shafyy 2y ago
It's not about if they also have stock or not, it's about the humongous payment gap between employees and the top dog.
- vasco 2y ago
  You said not seeing "any value". If you said it was very far apart I wouldn't have commented. But employees do benefit in a small part from the company growing.
  - shafyy 2y ago
    Ok, not any value was of course hyperbole. But putting in comparison to the cash Musk gets, it's fair to say it's almost nothing.

bottlepalm 2y ago

He makes the 'real' decisions daily that the company succeeds or fails by. I guess we can play games all day of what 'real' is. Though 'real hard cash' is a crap store of value. Let's graph the value of the dollar versus the value of Tesla stock over 20 years.

shafyy 2y ago
The fact that top managers receive a ton of cash because they make "decisions" and "bear the responsible" is bullshit made up by billionaires to justify their ridiculousy high incomes and wealth. In fact, they don't give two shits about their responsibility - they cash in as much as they can for a few years, and if things go south, they jump ship to the next one. Of course, Musk is not a typical career CEO. But still, he has a serious interest that his contribution to the path of Tesla is extremely overrated.

aikinai 2y ago

If he didn't create $450B in value, then his pay package isn't $56B as everyone is quoting. Those are valued in the same "hype-dollars." The "He didn't do anything valuable anyway" and "His pay package is too valuable" arguments are in direct contradiction.

shafyy 2y ago
The market cap of a company is not real money. However, owning a significant share of the shares can help rich people get real money without any real downsides. For example, Musk (any most billionaires) use their stock as collateral and take out super low interest loans against that stock. They don't pay any income tax on this loan, since it's not income. On the contrary, they can deduct the interest rate payments from their tax bill. This money they then use to buy property and other wealth. So, they make more money with not really their money (debt) and they use all tricks in the book to minimize their tax burden - which is much lower compared to (relatively speaking) low and middle class folks who earn most of their money through income and pay high income taxes. So, you see, even though his pay package is in Tesla stock and its value therefore "not real", he uses it to get very real cash using it. In finance this is called "leverage".
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  In fact, things get rather bad when that money is realized at once. Hype is accurate.
- smsm42 2y ago
  Nobody pays ang income tax on loans, it's not unique to Musk. And loans need to be returned, usually.

bamboozled 2y ago

I did a simple calculation just for the lolz: In 2018, Tesla employed ~ 14800 people, 56 billion divided by 14800 = 3783783. So apparently in 2018, for every staff member he apparently added ~ $3.7 million dollars worth of value that he should be compensated for in the form of a bonus? It's ridiculous.

refurb 2y ago
Why do you assume that increased value comes purely from employees? If Musk buys a robot that can weld a body 2x more efficient (installed and maintained by an external vendor), increasing the value of the company, which employee created that value?