4 ms·

Industry forms consortium to drive adoption of Rust in safety-critical systems

30 points by xrayarx 2y ago

pyeri 2y ago
This is great news for the progress of rust language. As someone recently said on a subreddit, rust's real power is that it fills that remarkable empty sweet spot between the low-level, high performance (but memory unsafe) languages like C/C++ AND the high-level, low performance (but memory safe) languages like Python and Java. The scope here is tremendous provided the folks can cater to it and nurture an ecosystem of apps, libraries, frameworks, etc.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  Rust is also one of the few "high productivity low level" languages like C++ or Ada or (with reservations because it has GC) OCaml.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    I would add Delphi, Modula-2 to the list, in terms of features, not how they turned up in the market in 2024.
  - rlupi 2y ago
    Tongue in check comment... as I am learning Rust for fun, mid-career, "high productivity" is not what I'd call the language. I like it, but I am half as fast as other similar languages to get the same results. Jokes aside. I'd like to see a comparison of Rust vs. modern Ada. I haven't touched Ada since college (i.e. in decades), but it has many nice features that C++ lacks. It's a pity that it isn't used outside specific circles.
    - andenacitelli 2y ago
      I think Rust only really shines when you factor in the longer-term lifetime (pun unintended) of the code. If you’re just focused on how much time it takes to get something working — in other words, a PoC / MVP — it doesn’t seem surprising to me that it’s significantly slower. The promise to me lies in the entire classes of errors you systemically prevent from happening (given no unsafe code) and just generally how much easier it is to write maintainable and bug-free code. These mechanisms are part of a very broad set of tooling that slows you down short-term but pays off in huge quantities over any even medium-term timeframe in an actual business product intended to be long-living. Granted, Rust has its tradeoffs just like any other language — from what I hear, refactoring and fighting the compiler in certain domains like gamedev gets annoying — but it seems much more positive than negative.
- stefantalpalaru 2y ago
  [dead]
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Good to see. Formal verification tools need to happen, and I hope they will be generalized to user-space, kernel, and embedded purposes. If FOSS, this would be amazing, but I suspect most of it will remain extremely expensive and shut out individual developers from the space.
westurner 2y ago
> The consortium aims to develop guidelines, tools, libraries, and language subsets to meet industrial and legal requirements for safety-critical systems. > Moreover, the initiative seeks to incorporate lessons learned from years of development in the open source ecosystem to make Rust a valuable component of safety toolkits across various industries and severity levels Resources and opportunities for a safety critical Rust initiative: - "The First Rust-Written Network PHY Driver Set to Land in Linux 6.8" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38677600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38677600 - awesome-safety-critical > Software safety standards: https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#software-safety-standards https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#so... - rust smart pointers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 ; LLVM signed pointers for pointer authentication: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40307180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40307180 From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 : > - Secure Rust Guidelines > Memory management, > Checklist > Memory management: https://anssi-fr.github.io/rust-guide/05_memory.html https://anssi-fr.github.io/rust-guide/05_memory.html Rust OS projects to safety critical with the forthcoming new guidelines: Redox, Cosmic, MotorOS, Maestro, Aerugo - "MotorOS: a Rust-first operating system for x64 VMs" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38907876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38907876: "Maestro: A Linux-compatible kernel in Rust" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38852360#38857185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38852360#38857185 ; redox-os, cosmic-de , Motūrus OS; MotorOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861799 : > COSMIC DE (Rust-based) supports rust-windowing/winit apps, which compile to a <canvas> tag in WASM. > winit: https://github.com/rust-windowing/winit https://github.com/rust-windowing/winit - "Aerugo – RTOS for aerospace uses written in Rust" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39245897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39245897 - "The Rust Implementation of GNU Coreutils Is Becoming Remarkably Robust" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34743393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34743393 From a previous Ctrl-F rust,; "Rust in the Linux kernel" (2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35783214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35783214 : - > Is this the source for the rust port of the Android binder kernel module?: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/native/+/master/libs/binder/rust/src https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/native/... > This guide with unsafe rust that calls into the C, and then with next gen much safer rust right next to it would be a helpful resource too. From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34744433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34744433 ... From "Are software engineering “best practices” just developer preferences?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28709239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28709239 : >>>>> Which universities teach formal methods? /?hnlog "TLA" and "side channel"

30 points by xrayarx 2y ago

This is great news for the progress of rust language. As someone recently said on a subreddit, rust's real power is that it fills that remarkable empty sweet spot between the low-level, high performance (but memory unsafe) languages like C/C++ AND the high-level, low performance (but memory safe) languages like Python and Java. The scope here is tremendous provided the folks can cater to it and nurture an ecosystem of apps, libraries, frameworks, etc.

ahartmetz 2y ago
Rust is also one of the few "high productivity low level" languages like C++ or Ada or (with reservations because it has GC) OCaml.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  I would add Delphi, Modula-2 to the list, in terms of features, not how they turned up in the market in 2024.
- rlupi 2y ago
  Tongue in check comment... as I am learning Rust for fun, mid-career, "high productivity" is not what I'd call the language. I like it, but I am half as fast as other similar languages to get the same results. Jokes aside. I'd like to see a comparison of Rust vs. modern Ada. I haven't touched Ada since college (i.e. in decades), but it has many nice features that C++ lacks. It's a pity that it isn't used outside specific circles.
  - andenacitelli 2y ago
    I think Rust only really shines when you factor in the longer-term lifetime (pun unintended) of the code. If you’re just focused on how much time it takes to get something working — in other words, a PoC / MVP — it doesn’t seem surprising to me that it’s significantly slower. The promise to me lies in the entire classes of errors you systemically prevent from happening (given no unsafe code) and just generally how much easier it is to write maintainable and bug-free code. These mechanisms are part of a very broad set of tooling that slows you down short-term but pays off in huge quantities over any even medium-term timeframe in an actual business product intended to be long-living. Granted, Rust has its tradeoffs just like any other language — from what I hear, refactoring and fighting the compiler in certain domains like gamedev gets annoying — but it seems much more positive than negative.
stefantalpalaru 2y ago
[dead]

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

Good to see. Formal verification tools need to happen, and I hope they will be generalized to user-space, kernel, and embedded purposes. If FOSS, this would be amazing, but I suspect most of it will remain extremely expensive and shut out individual developers from the space.

westurner 2y ago

> The consortium aims to develop guidelines, tools, libraries, and language subsets to meet industrial and legal requirements for safety-critical systems. > Moreover, the initiative seeks to incorporate lessons learned from years of development in the open source ecosystem to make Rust a valuable component of safety toolkits across various industries and severity levels Resources and opportunities for a safety critical Rust initiative: - "The First Rust-Written Network PHY Driver Set to Land in Linux 6.8" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38677600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38677600 - awesome-safety-critical > Software safety standards: https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#software-safety-standards https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#so... - rust smart pointers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 ; LLVM signed pointers for pointer authentication: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40307180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40307180 From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33563857 : > - Secure Rust Guidelines > Memory management, > Checklist > Memory management: https://anssi-fr.github.io/rust-guide/05_memory.html https://anssi-fr.github.io/rust-guide/05_memory.html Rust OS projects to safety critical with the forthcoming new guidelines: Redox, Cosmic, MotorOS, Maestro, Aerugo - "MotorOS: a Rust-first operating system for x64 VMs" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38907876 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38907876: "Maestro: A Linux-compatible kernel in Rust" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38852360#38857185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38852360#38857185 ; redox-os, cosmic-de , Motūrus OS; MotorOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38861799 : > COSMIC DE (Rust-based) supports rust-windowing/winit apps, which compile to a <canvas> tag in WASM. > winit: https://github.com/rust-windowing/winit https://github.com/rust-windowing/winit - "Aerugo – RTOS for aerospace uses written in Rust" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39245897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39245897 - "The Rust Implementation of GNU Coreutils Is Becoming Remarkably Robust" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34743393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34743393 From a previous Ctrl-F rust,; "Rust in the Linux kernel" (2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35783214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35783214 : - > Is this the source for the rust port of the Android binder kernel module?: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/native/+/master/libs/binder/rust/src https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/native/... > This guide with unsafe rust that calls into the C, and then with next gen much safer rust right next to it would be a helpful resource too. From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34744433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34744433 ... From "Are software engineering “best practices” just developer preferences?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28709239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28709239 : >>>>> Which universities teach formal methods? /?hnlog "TLA" and "side channel"