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Even the good AI image generators struggle with details like fingers, and ear lobes, and other small but important details. Also, I found this quote interestin

by amanzi 2y ago

Even the good AI image generators struggle with details like fingers, and ear lobes, and other small but important details. Also, I found this quote interesting: "...Stability AI’s insistence on censoring adult content from SD3’s training data". Da Vinci figured this out hundreds of years ago, that to draw accurate pictures of humans, you need to understand the human body.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Yeah, it's especially ironic given how big a role nude modelling plays in art schools - it's fundamental to drawing, painting and sculpting.
lifeisstillgood 2y ago
I think the point is you need a naked human body - art classes use volunteers, midjourney presumably uses pornhub. I guess there is not a lot of naked human images out there that’s not porn.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  I imagine if they filtered out just the bits with some action going on, they'd still have approximately infinite feed of naked human bodies in all possible poses, which would be unoffensive out of context (or at least less offensive), and would be equivalent to art classes models for the purpose of training.
  - hurrdurr57 2y ago
    This would be doable, but expensive. You'd need to pay people to go through 10,000 pornographic images and manually blur out all of the fun bits.
- kergonath 2y ago
  It really is not difficult to find breasts, bottoms and well proportioned limbs on the Internet. Even in underwear if you must because you’re afraid of something.
  - lifeisstillgood 2y ago
    I suspect it’s not a matter of “don’t use porn because porn is socially unacceptable” but “we don’t use copyrighted training data and all 99.9% porn is copyrighted by commercial entities who sue”
    - kergonath 2y ago
      We know they do it and they don’t even really hide. Porn producers are not that different from photograph agencies and stock image sellers. Porn is also full of public domain pictures, just like any topic. OTOH, they go to great lengths to make sure that their model’s output does not show a nipple.
- semi-extrinsic 2y ago
  At least since v5 and barring any prompt engineering, midjourney is a real prude. I would be very surprised if it's trained on porn. Try something like "women at the beach" and everyone is wearing wetsuits. Or the infamous "treasure chest is a banned term". FWIW this is better for my purposes, with the older versions I recall trying to generate illustrations of female scientists for use in professional settings, and having to do a lot of tweaking to avoid ahem chest issues. It seems obvious that midjourney is trained on copyrighted material though. I've seen the latest version generate straight-up "Tom Cruise in Top Gun 2" and similar.
roenxi 2y ago
Although it'll be fascinating to see how things like the finger situation change as we get models in common use that also handle video well. One thing that becomes obvious quickly with Stable Diffusion is that it doesn't have a good concept of a 3D world model to work with; or any grasp of physics. It is practically impossible for a human artist with SD levels of competence to accidentally draw multiple limbs and that speaks to how it just doesn't get that humans are a 3D existence. Once video data is involved though it seems likely that will change. And I reckon a side effect is that a lot of the trickier details will improve. It'll be a great experiment to figure out whether the models also need lessons in anatomy or whether they figure it out through pure observation.
lovethevoid 2y ago
Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. The current problem for them really isn't the details in isolation but rather cohesive details throughout the entire picture in one attempt. It's very lacking and requires a lot of manual input, filtering, reliance on multiple tools, etc.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. But that should not be the case. A human body is not more complicated than a horse’s or a cat’s, and those are usually much better. There really is a problem in our relation with our own bodies.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    I do think we have much more sensitivity to deviations in human appearance. We probably wouldn't notice a lot of "weird looking" cats that other cats would
    - kergonath 2y ago
      Looking at these mangled bodies, it’s not small deviations. We would definitely notice a cat with 6 limbs or 3 ears.
      - snapcaster 2y ago
        Yes in this case for sure, just meant in general
  - elpocko 2y ago
    >> Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. >But that should not be the case. What is your point here? Good AI should not make mistakes? Or good AI should not handle those details? Go ahead and ask some human artist how difficult it is to draw hands.
kergonath 2y ago
And sometimes that body is nude. On one hand I hope that this will help some people understand that their standards of what is SFW or NSFW need to be adjusted. Also, why the hell are we using workplaces as a yard stick for what is acceptable in our private life? Why on earth is it a problem if kids see tits at home? Anyway, I hope standards will change in the US faster than the rest of the world finishes shifting to those utterly stupid standards.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Indeed, what counts as safe and not-safe varies wildly by culture. I live in Berlin, and outside my apartment there is a spinning cube of adverts; the face of that cube advertising for Dildo King is between the face advertising for family cargo bikes and the face advertising for Edeka (a supermarket). There are also several nudist beaches within the city limits. From outside the USA, I sometimes hear things such as Florida wanting to treat cross-dressing as inherently sexualised and therefore criminal if done in the presence of minors. (Was that a true story? When I search for it, I get transgender issues, rather than cross-dressing, so I can't find out if Hillary Clinton's trousers are a literal fashion crime in Florida).
  - foobiekr 2y ago
    https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... it's interesting to consider the implications of Taleb's essay in light of the companies trying to make globally inoffensive LLMs.

by amanzi 2y ago

TeMPOraL 2y ago

Yeah, it's especially ironic given how big a role nude modelling plays in art schools - it's fundamental to drawing, painting and sculpting.

lifeisstillgood 2y ago

I think the point is you need a naked human body - art classes use volunteers, midjourney presumably uses pornhub. I guess there is not a lot of naked human images out there that’s not porn.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
I imagine if they filtered out just the bits with some action going on, they'd still have approximately infinite feed of naked human bodies in all possible poses, which would be unoffensive out of context (or at least less offensive), and would be equivalent to art classes models for the purpose of training.
- hurrdurr57 2y ago
  This would be doable, but expensive. You'd need to pay people to go through 10,000 pornographic images and manually blur out all of the fun bits.
kergonath 2y ago
It really is not difficult to find breasts, bottoms and well proportioned limbs on the Internet. Even in underwear if you must because you’re afraid of something.
- lifeisstillgood 2y ago
  I suspect it’s not a matter of “don’t use porn because porn is socially unacceptable” but “we don’t use copyrighted training data and all 99.9% porn is copyrighted by commercial entities who sue”
  - kergonath 2y ago
    We know they do it and they don’t even really hide. Porn producers are not that different from photograph agencies and stock image sellers. Porn is also full of public domain pictures, just like any topic. OTOH, they go to great lengths to make sure that their model’s output does not show a nipple.
semi-extrinsic 2y ago
At least since v5 and barring any prompt engineering, midjourney is a real prude. I would be very surprised if it's trained on porn. Try something like "women at the beach" and everyone is wearing wetsuits. Or the infamous "treasure chest is a banned term". FWIW this is better for my purposes, with the older versions I recall trying to generate illustrations of female scientists for use in professional settings, and having to do a lot of tweaking to avoid ahem chest issues. It seems obvious that midjourney is trained on copyrighted material though. I've seen the latest version generate straight-up "Tom Cruise in Top Gun 2" and similar.

roenxi 2y ago

Although it'll be fascinating to see how things like the finger situation change as we get models in common use that also handle video well. One thing that becomes obvious quickly with Stable Diffusion is that it doesn't have a good concept of a 3D world model to work with; or any grasp of physics. It is practically impossible for a human artist with SD levels of competence to accidentally draw multiple limbs and that speaks to how it just doesn't get that humans are a 3D existence. Once video data is involved though it seems likely that will change. And I reckon a side effect is that a lot of the trickier details will improve. It'll be a great experiment to figure out whether the models also need lessons in anatomy or whether they figure it out through pure observation.

lovethevoid 2y ago

Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. The current problem for them really isn't the details in isolation but rather cohesive details throughout the entire picture in one attempt. It's very lacking and requires a lot of manual input, filtering, reliance on multiple tools, etc.

kergonath 2y ago
> Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. But that should not be the case. A human body is not more complicated than a horse’s or a cat’s, and those are usually much better. There really is a problem in our relation with our own bodies.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I do think we have much more sensitivity to deviations in human appearance. We probably wouldn't notice a lot of "weird looking" cats that other cats would
  - kergonath 2y ago
    Looking at these mangled bodies, it’s not small deviations. We would definitely notice a cat with 6 limbs or 3 ears.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      Yes in this case for sure, just meant in general
- elpocko 2y ago
  >> Good AI image generators handle those details well already. Even if you don't get it 100%, you can inpaint fix very quickly. >But that should not be the case. What is your point here? Good AI should not make mistakes? Or good AI should not handle those details? Go ahead and ask some human artist how difficult it is to draw hands.

kergonath 2y ago

And sometimes that body is nude. On one hand I hope that this will help some people understand that their standards of what is SFW or NSFW need to be adjusted. Also, why the hell are we using workplaces as a yard stick for what is acceptable in our private life? Why on earth is it a problem if kids see tits at home? Anyway, I hope standards will change in the US faster than the rest of the world finishes shifting to those utterly stupid standards.

ben_w 2y ago
Indeed, what counts as safe and not-safe varies wildly by culture. I live in Berlin, and outside my apartment there is a spinning cube of adverts; the face of that cube advertising for Dildo King is between the face advertising for family cargo bikes and the face advertising for Edeka (a supermarket). There are also several nudist beaches within the city limits. From outside the USA, I sometimes hear things such as Florida wanting to treat cross-dressing as inherently sexualised and therefore criminal if done in the presence of minors. (Was that a true story? When I search for it, I get transgender issues, rather than cross-dressing, so I can't find out if Hillary Clinton's trousers are a literal fashion crime in Florida).
- foobiekr 2y ago
  https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... it's interesting to consider the implications of Taleb's essay in light of the companies trying to make globally inoffensive LLMs.