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As a parent of three I’d suggest that it’s probably the best to teach them to use them as tools not entertainment. As I quoted elsewhere, any extremist or redu

by cjk2 2y ago

As a parent of three I’d suggest that it’s probably the best to teach them to use them as tools not entertainment. As I quoted elsewhere, any extremist or reductionist position makes things worse for them.

bluSCALE4 2y ago
Nerd dad here. This is hard. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Meta Quest is the only tech that's being used as a tool in my house. Everything else are used as toys. I've even tried to restrict games heavily and it still was tough. Basically, some kids will not seek out education things even if they are installed. This was not my upbringing. I would eventually bore of games and looked for educational things like Dangerous Creatures, Microsoft Bob, Encarta, etc. But I am not seeing the same in my kids.
- cjk2 2y ago
  Crap time is fine. Not everything has to have educational value or they will get burned out. Variety is the problem.
  - ricardobeat 2y ago
    Their comment implies that very little time is spent in educational content (all the time is “crap time”), which is the other extreme. What do you mean by variety is the problem?
    - cjk2 2y ago
      Well I should say lack of variety. Games are healthy, communications are healthy, education is healthy. Too much of any of those at the sacrifice of any other is not.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  I have two boys 10 and 12. Same upbringing, same household culture, same screen time rules. The young one loves programming in Scratch, building levels in Roblox, creating music, exploring all kinds of creative projects. The older one has tried it all out, but prefers to just play games.
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Yeah I only played games as well. They teach you how to solve problems. I am grateful for this.
  - WheatMillington 2y ago
    I can already see this disparity forming between my two boys, 7 and 4. It's remarkable how different they are for kids brought up in identical conditions.
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  It is hard, but don't forget that toys are learning tools too! You can learn a lot without overtly feeling like you're studying. An example is playing a "learn math" game vs playing Slay the Spire which innately includes a lot of math you have to grasp. Or Hue to understand color theory and color grading without it ever feeling like a "lesson". Kerbal Space Program for basic physics, Portal for momentum and logic (Portal 2 can be great for coop sessions where they figure out how to collaborate and communicate through tough problems that seem impossible). A lot of the lack of curiosity is because so many kids are taught to view curiosity as boring, rather than fostering that curiosity as just another form of play. There are even things like minecraft plugins/servers where text is translated to a language of your choice, and everyone is encouraged to use only that language to collaborate which can be such an exponentially fast way to learn languages without ever feeling like it's a chore. So don't be afraid to seek out things that blur the lines between education and play! Foster that creativity and curiosity.
  - bluSCALE4 2y ago
    I've done most of those things but they don't take. For some reason, grind games, pointless games take. Some educational games took but not many. Not enough.
ryandrake 2y ago
I think in order for parents to do this, they must themselves use their phones as tools and not entertainment. Kids are great at spotting hypocrisy, and if parents are seen zombie-scrolling through Instagram for hours, and then they tell their kids not to zombie-scroll because it's bad for you, well the kids will know their parents are totally full of shit. It's impossible for parents who are themselves addicted to smartphones to tell their kids not to be addicted to smartphones. The parents need to cure their own addiction first.
- cjk2 2y ago
  100% agree with this on all points.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  This is probably true, but doesn’t stop kids developing addiction on their own. It might encourage them to get started, but once hooked the inputs/outputs are the same.
erulabs 2y ago
Social media is both a tool and entertainment. It's not entertainment that's wrecking kids. It's being in a global and immutable social circle. In the 90s, if you were a nerd in high-school, you get a chance to re-invent yourself in college, and another at your first job. Heck, you can re-invent yourself between different groups of friends. Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes. Tons of kids grew up glued to their Nintendos. I played an _insane_ amount of Starcraft. Our generation did not have the same negative effects that the current generation is having with social media. What we need is physical community based social media - ie: a facebook with only your high-school, which becomes inaccessible upon graduation.
- AbstractH24 2y ago
  If you were in any sort of closed community (religious, political, niche industry, etc), the fear of not being able to reinvent yourself was always there. Now its everywhere is the difference.
- numpad0 2y ago
  That's Discord, Messenger groups, iMessage groups, ...
- squigz 2y ago
  > Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes. For what it's worth, none of this has been my experience at all. I'm not even really sure what the first sentence means exactly.
  - stonekyx 2y ago
    I think what it meant is that, in the social networks today, you have to behave “consistently” all the time. If you wrote something today and then say the opposite tomorrow, people online would probably attack you for being untrustworthy or something like that, and refuse to accept your points. But in reality, nobody can be consistent all the time. We’re all different from minute to minute, and it’s perfectly natural to change your opinions however often you want.

by cjk2 2y ago

bluSCALE4 2y ago

Nerd dad here. This is hard. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Meta Quest is the only tech that's being used as a tool in my house. Everything else are used as toys. I've even tried to restrict games heavily and it still was tough. Basically, some kids will not seek out education things even if they are installed. This was not my upbringing. I would eventually bore of games and looked for educational things like Dangerous Creatures, Microsoft Bob, Encarta, etc. But I am not seeing the same in my kids.

cjk2 2y ago
Crap time is fine. Not everything has to have educational value or they will get burned out. Variety is the problem.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  Their comment implies that very little time is spent in educational content (all the time is “crap time”), which is the other extreme. What do you mean by variety is the problem?
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Well I should say lack of variety. Games are healthy, communications are healthy, education is healthy. Too much of any of those at the sacrifice of any other is not.
jay_kyburz 2y ago
I have two boys 10 and 12. Same upbringing, same household culture, same screen time rules. The young one loves programming in Scratch, building levels in Roblox, creating music, exploring all kinds of creative projects. The older one has tried it all out, but prefers to just play games.
- cjk2 2y ago
  Yeah I only played games as well. They teach you how to solve problems. I am grateful for this.
- WheatMillington 2y ago
  I can already see this disparity forming between my two boys, 7 and 4. It's remarkable how different they are for kids brought up in identical conditions.
lovethevoid 2y ago
It is hard, but don't forget that toys are learning tools too! You can learn a lot without overtly feeling like you're studying. An example is playing a "learn math" game vs playing Slay the Spire which innately includes a lot of math you have to grasp. Or Hue to understand color theory and color grading without it ever feeling like a "lesson". Kerbal Space Program for basic physics, Portal for momentum and logic (Portal 2 can be great for coop sessions where they figure out how to collaborate and communicate through tough problems that seem impossible). A lot of the lack of curiosity is because so many kids are taught to view curiosity as boring, rather than fostering that curiosity as just another form of play. There are even things like minecraft plugins/servers where text is translated to a language of your choice, and everyone is encouraged to use only that language to collaborate which can be such an exponentially fast way to learn languages without ever feeling like it's a chore. So don't be afraid to seek out things that blur the lines between education and play! Foster that creativity and curiosity.
- bluSCALE4 2y ago
  I've done most of those things but they don't take. For some reason, grind games, pointless games take. Some educational games took but not many. Not enough.

ryandrake 2y ago

I think in order for parents to do this, they must themselves use their phones as tools and not entertainment. Kids are great at spotting hypocrisy, and if parents are seen zombie-scrolling through Instagram for hours, and then they tell their kids not to zombie-scroll because it's bad for you, well the kids will know their parents are totally full of shit. It's impossible for parents who are themselves addicted to smartphones to tell their kids not to be addicted to smartphones. The parents need to cure their own addiction first.

cjk2 2y ago
100% agree with this on all points.
ricardobeat 2y ago
This is probably true, but doesn’t stop kids developing addiction on their own. It might encourage them to get started, but once hooked the inputs/outputs are the same.

erulabs 2y ago

Social media is both a tool and entertainment. It's not entertainment that's wrecking kids. It's being in a global and immutable social circle. In the 90s, if you were a nerd in high-school, you get a chance to re-invent yourself in college, and another at your first job. Heck, you can re-invent yourself between different groups of friends. Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes. Tons of kids grew up glued to their Nintendos. I played an _insane_ amount of Starcraft. Our generation did not have the same negative effects that the current generation is having with social media. What we need is physical community based social media - ie: a facebook with only your high-school, which becomes inaccessible upon graduation.

AbstractH24 2y ago
If you were in any sort of closed community (religious, political, niche industry, etc), the fear of not being able to reinvent yourself was always there. Now its everywhere is the difference.
numpad0 2y ago
That's Discord, Messenger groups, iMessage groups, ...
squigz 2y ago
> Now, we ask kids to define themselves completely, wholly, all at once, finally, in front of everyone. Got broken up with? It was pretty hard to tell someone in the 90s their lives weren't over, but it's impossible now. There is an (apparently) permanent record of all your failures and lack of successes. For what it's worth, none of this has been my experience at all. I'm not even really sure what the first sentence means exactly.
- stonekyx 2y ago
  I think what it meant is that, in the social networks today, you have to behave “consistently” all the time. If you wrote something today and then say the opposite tomorrow, people online would probably attack you for being untrustworthy or something like that, and refuse to accept your points. But in reality, nobody can be consistent all the time. We’re all different from minute to minute, and it’s perfectly natural to change your opinions however often you want.