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First, Tesla is not legally required to put the driver in control - they are free to indemnify the driver completely and shoulder all of the liability themselve

by abduhl 2y ago

First, Tesla is not legally required to put the driver in control - they are free to indemnify the driver completely and shoulder all of the liability themselves. Second, who do you think was ultimately the one at fault for the excessive radiation doses caused by the Therac-25 machines: the machine technician operating the machine or the machine manufacturer? If it isn't the technician then I don't understand your argument because you can just find/replace every instance of driver in your post with technician. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

gridspy 2y ago
Therac-25 is more like a stuck accelerator pedal. The operator did not command the machine to deliver too much radiation, that happened outside their control.
- abduhl 2y ago
  And you think that a driver commands their Tesla to run into an object when they enable autopilot or FSD?
  - gridspy 2y ago
    One is a failure to act as an agent - to control the car and make decisions. Another is a failure to even be a reliable tool - to do what the operator commands. Very different. Creating Agents is a lot harder.
    - abduhl 2y ago
      Coming up with new words and terms in order to escape the comparison smacks of This Time It’s Different. Therac-25 was an Agent for performing radiation therapy - it controlled the radiation machine and made decisions. Autopilot/FSD is supposed to be a tool for the driver and it fails to be a reliable tool by driving into things. This Time It’s Not Different At All
      - ETH_start 2y ago
        Autopilot is NOT advertised as being able to drive perfectly on its own, and your disingenuous analogies won't change that.
      - gridspy 2y ago
        Agent - Something that makes decisions and actions that are not pre-programmed or predictable. Humans are definitely agents. LLM (eg Chat-GPT) are not quite there yet (they don't take action on their own). Tool - Pretty much everything humanity has made to date. It does a preprogrammed thing or provides mechanical advantage. But it does not act on novel decisions it is making. The terms come from an AI safety expert that Lex Friedman interviewed recently. [1] Tesla FSD is almost an agent, though it asks a human to be ready to take over at any time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNr6gPelJ3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNr6gPelJ3E
ETH_start 2y ago
Tesla is legally required to put the driver in control. They do not have permission to sell a self-driving vehicle for use on public roads. Secondly, it is already established and disclosed that the driver assist cannot self-drive. This would be comparable to a Therac-25 machine being sold as being incapable of limiting radiation output, and then not limiting radiation output. There is absolutely no other company in the world where a predictable and disclosed shortcoming of the driver assist combined with the failure of the driver to fulfill their responsibility to be in control, would be blamed on the driver assist program. Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions.

by abduhl 2y ago

gridspy 2y ago

Therac-25 is more like a stuck accelerator pedal. The operator did not command the machine to deliver too much radiation, that happened outside their control.

abduhl 2y ago
And you think that a driver commands their Tesla to run into an object when they enable autopilot or FSD?
- gridspy 2y ago
  One is a failure to act as an agent - to control the car and make decisions. Another is a failure to even be a reliable tool - to do what the operator commands. Very different. Creating Agents is a lot harder.
  - abduhl 2y ago
    Coming up with new words and terms in order to escape the comparison smacks of This Time It’s Different. Therac-25 was an Agent for performing radiation therapy - it controlled the radiation machine and made decisions. Autopilot/FSD is supposed to be a tool for the driver and it fails to be a reliable tool by driving into things. This Time It’s Not Different At All
    - ETH_start 2y ago
      Autopilot is NOT advertised as being able to drive perfectly on its own, and your disingenuous analogies won't change that.
    - gridspy 2y ago
      Agent - Something that makes decisions and actions that are not pre-programmed or predictable. Humans are definitely agents. LLM (eg Chat-GPT) are not quite there yet (they don't take action on their own). Tool - Pretty much everything humanity has made to date. It does a preprogrammed thing or provides mechanical advantage. But it does not act on novel decisions it is making. The terms come from an AI safety expert that Lex Friedman interviewed recently. [1] Tesla FSD is almost an agent, though it asks a human to be ready to take over at any time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNr6gPelJ3E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNr6gPelJ3E

ETH_start 2y ago

Tesla is legally required to put the driver in control. They do not have permission to sell a self-driving vehicle for use on public roads. Secondly, it is already established and disclosed that the driver assist cannot self-drive. This would be comparable to a Therac-25 machine being sold as being incapable of limiting radiation output, and then not limiting radiation output. There is absolutely no other company in the world where a predictable and disclosed shortcoming of the driver assist combined with the failure of the driver to fulfill their responsibility to be in control, would be blamed on the driver assist program. Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions.