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Don't know, but such cities shouldn't be encouraging urban sprawl, should be insisting for solar panels on every roof possible, and at the same time shouldn't b

Don't know, but such cities shouldn't be encouraging urban sprawl, should be insisting for solar panels on every roof possible, and at the same time shouldn't be incentivizing people to move there. I've lived in AZ, and it is nice in the winter, sure. But that's only a few months. It is hot as fuck in the warmer months and I to this day have no idea why people actually live there. the urban sprawl plus the fact that you have to drive everywhere, just blows my mind.

throwaway22032 2y ago
Arizona is a bit too warm for me, but a lot of people consider driving to be a positive. I would rather spend 15 mins in my car than 15 mins on a bus. I'd rather live in a place that is sprawling because then everything is bigger - I'd rather have a large house than a small one, a large garden than a small one, and I'd rather shop at a big box store that is more likely to allow me to be hands on with everything I need vs. a teeny high street shop and ordering online. I currently live somewhere quite urban and barely spend any time in the walkable/public transportable centre because there's not much I want to do there other than pubs and restaurants. edit: The responses to my post are kind of weird, I'm not telling you to adopt my preferences.
- birdman3131 2y ago
  At least where I am 10 mins in a car can be up to 1.7 hours in a bus. And the same back. If it was an apples to apples comparison then I would rather be driven than drive. But its not.
  - NickC25 2y ago
    Take a bike. Might not be 10 minutes, but will be under 30. and cheaper than taking a bus, too.
    - birdman3131 2y ago
      Bikes are not great. Ebikes might be able to keep up with traffic but not legally. No bike lanes mean your in traffic with posted speeds of 35-40 MPH and actual speeds of 40-48 MPH. Not to say I disagree with bikes. Ive got all the parts for an ebike just need to mount them. But its not really viable transport around here if you add in the dangers.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      Taking a bike when it's 110 F out may be better than walking to a bus stop and then waiting for a bus, but it's still not something that many people want to do...
- QuercusMax 2y ago
  How does that work if everyone wants that? We don't have enough Earths to support 8 billion people living in sprawl.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    We might. If we have 54 million square kilometers of habitable land that is not used for agriculture, and we scatter 8 billion people across it, then we end up with a population density of about 148 people per square kilometer -- which is approximately what Florida is today.
    - QuercusMax 2y ago
      Do we have the resources to support such a sprawly civilization? It's not just the land, it's all the infrastructure (roads, plumbing, power, etc.) which isn't free.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        No, of course not. But the claim was about the unavailability of space, not of man-made infrastructure.
        QuercusMax 2y ago
        I said we don't have enough earths to support everyone living in sprawl. That's talking about resources, not just land.
    - jandrese 2y ago
      If that is your plan you need teleporters for everybody so you don't need to pave the world to get basic access.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        It's not my plan. I was just evaluating one aspect of its practicality. It would be a shitty idea to propose that everyone live in exactly the same way. Diversity is generally good. It's nice to have some options available. (Even with universal teleporters, diversity is generally good.)
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  Reworded: I love that my car lets me travel alone and without paying the full cost of the miles I log. I'm either terrified of public transit and/or the experiences I've had on it have generally sucked. I prefer bigger everything because I rarely think about the downsides and externalities, and was told from birth that bigger is better. I prefer a large house as long because I can afford somebody else to clean and maintain it, along with the utility bills and property taxes. I prefer a larger garden under the same conditions. I prefer stores that dominate and distort the market and allow me to avoid human interactions.
  - throwaway22032 2y ago
    It would be more polite and useful to ask me to clarify rather than producing a strawman. I don't prefer driving because it is inexpensive, I prefer it because it has greater utility for me. If the cost of fuel doubled or more I would still do it, I'd just be a bit more efficient with the journeys I do make. I'm not terrified of the tube/trains/buses, I use them. It's just a bit shit, doesn't go to loads of places I want to go, and is generally less comfortable. I do think that bigger is better. I don't pay for someone to clean or maintain my house, I do it myself. I haven't been told that bigger is better, it simply is. For example, just yesterday I made a table. In order to do that I needed enough space to work in and store my tools. I could not do this in a smaller house or apartment. Theoretically I could hire a workshop or go to a hackspace but that would be substantially more hassle than just walking into my garden or the garage or whatever. I like human interactions. Just not with endless hordes in a super dense city centre. I prefer chatting with my neighbours, or someone on a hiking trail, or having people over, etc. It sounds as if you just have different preferences to me. Different hobbies, desires, etc. That's fine, that's why you don't prefer driving. I do.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      I live in a small village of 250 people in rural New Mexico, 25 miles from the nearest town. To get to almost anywhere I have to drive. When I socialize, it is mostly with neighbors or people on hiking trails. I have a large set of tools out back and space to use them. Don't assume that my preferences are so different from yours (though your use of "the tube" suggests that you're located in SE England, so many things may be different). My point was that all the preferences you expressed come with a cost, not only to you, but to everything and everyone else as well. Talking about these things as if they are merely personal choices is misleading, they are actually personal choices that, in aggregate, shape the world we all get to live in. And the specific set of choices that you listed, for the most part, in aggregate, have a negative impact on the world. I'm a participant in that too, clearly.
bcrosby95 2y ago
I'm curious, do you feel the same for places that reach 40F? 30F? Because heating is a bigger problem than cooling when it comes to contributions towards climate change. Why do I only ever see people railing against people living in hot places, rather than people living in cold places?
- jedberg 2y ago
  It's a lot easier to add heat to survive in a cold place than take away heat in a hot place. Kinda like how people complain in an office "Can we turn down the thermostat? You can put on a coat but I can't take my skin off".
  - maxbond 2y ago
    Additionally, when you add new construction to a hot place, the additional sidewalk and asphalt makes it hotter. Adding new construction to a cold place doesn't make it colder.
  - brianshaler 2y ago
    I think the point GP was making was that hot daytime temperatures in desert climates tend to coincide with peak renewable energy generation, while at higher latitudes in cloudier places the the source of energy is more likely to be from combustion.
    - bluefirebrand 2y ago
      If we're only worried about temperature, sure But fresh water is a pretty huge concern as well and moving/producing large amounts of that in extremely hot areas is going to more than offset the difference in heating costs
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    Given the heat pump technology that we have these days, moving heat from A to B is roughly the same as moving it from B to A.
SoftTalker 2y ago
No real issue with installing solar, but the panels are dark. Won't that contribute to the heat island effect, especially considering that among the remediations proposed are white roofs and pavement?
- brianshaler 2y ago
  A decade or two ago there was a push to paint as many roofs white as possible, which is why you may intuit dark is bad. Black surfaces convert absorb light energy and convert it into heat. Solar panels do get hot, but part of the point is to turn as much of that light energy as possible into electrical energy.
dyauspitr 2y ago
I much prefer hot af to an icy hellhole. Heating takes up a huge amount of energy and you can’t really do it in an environmentally friendly way unless you get creative. The good thing about the heat is when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy. It’s a cooling solution that scales itself with the temperature.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  > The good thing about the heat is when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy. Incorrect. Peak PV efficiency occurs at relatively low temperatures. Perhaps you mean "when it is hot, there tends to be lots of sunshine, and so there's lot of PV generation" ? That's true of some places (Southern CA, AZ, NV, NM) but less true of others (Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia etc).
- accrual 2y ago
  > when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy That's not true. > It may seem counterintuitive, but solar panel efficiency is negatively affected by temperature increases. Photovoltaic modules are tested at a temperature of 25° C - about 77° F, and depending on their installed location, heat can reduce output efficiency by 10-25%. As the solar panel's temperature increases, its output current increases exponentially while the voltage output decreases linearly. In fact, voltage reduction is so predictable that it can be used to measure temperature accurately. [0] > Home solar panels are tested at 25 °C (77 °F), and thus solar panel temperature will generally range between 15 °C and 35 °C during which solar cells will produce at maximum efficiency. However, solar panels can get as hot as 65 °C (149 °F), at which point solar cell efficiency will be hindered. [1] [0] https://www.greentechrenewables.com/article/how-does-heat-affect-solar-panel-efficiencies https://www.greentechrenewables.com/article/how-does-heat-af... [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-panel-temperature-overheating/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-panel-temperature-ove...
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    Either ways, if it’s hot there is going to be a lot of uninterrupted sunlight.
hosh 2y ago
I live in Phoenix now. My wife and I are planning to move away from here in two years. We were only here because of circumstances outside of our control and now those circumstances are no longer applicable. Phoenix's main economic driver is real estate development and speculation since the 60s. It has very little in the way of real wealth that serves as a foundation (other than ASU and the two silicon fabs that are there now). A lot of people come here thinking it is affordable cost of living (and it is not that affordable in 2024), but I don't think many residents here really know why they live in Phoenix either.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Best time to get out of a market is before everyone else is running for the door. Lots of stranded assets and sadness ahead for folks who held on to assets too long in the wrong places. https://www.marketplace.org/2024/05/28/are-we-in-the-midst-of-a-climate-housing-bubble/ https://www.marketplace.org/2024/05/28/are-we-in-the-midst-o... http://www.deltaterracapital.com/ http://www.deltaterracapital.com/

throwaway22032 2y ago

Arizona is a bit too warm for me, but a lot of people consider driving to be a positive. I would rather spend 15 mins in my car than 15 mins on a bus. I'd rather live in a place that is sprawling because then everything is bigger - I'd rather have a large house than a small one, a large garden than a small one, and I'd rather shop at a big box store that is more likely to allow me to be hands on with everything I need vs. a teeny high street shop and ordering online. I currently live somewhere quite urban and barely spend any time in the walkable/public transportable centre because there's not much I want to do there other than pubs and restaurants. edit: The responses to my post are kind of weird, I'm not telling you to adopt my preferences.

birdman3131 2y ago
At least where I am 10 mins in a car can be up to 1.7 hours in a bus. And the same back. If it was an apples to apples comparison then I would rather be driven than drive. But its not.
- NickC25 2y ago
  Take a bike. Might not be 10 minutes, but will be under 30. and cheaper than taking a bus, too.
  - birdman3131 2y ago
    Bikes are not great. Ebikes might be able to keep up with traffic but not legally. No bike lanes mean your in traffic with posted speeds of 35-40 MPH and actual speeds of 40-48 MPH. Not to say I disagree with bikes. Ive got all the parts for an ebike just need to mount them. But its not really viable transport around here if you add in the dangers.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Taking a bike when it's 110 F out may be better than walking to a bus stop and then waiting for a bus, but it's still not something that many people want to do...
QuercusMax 2y ago
How does that work if everyone wants that? We don't have enough Earths to support 8 billion people living in sprawl.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  We might. If we have 54 million square kilometers of habitable land that is not used for agriculture, and we scatter 8 billion people across it, then we end up with a population density of about 148 people per square kilometer -- which is approximately what Florida is today.
  - QuercusMax 2y ago
    Do we have the resources to support such a sprawly civilization? It's not just the land, it's all the infrastructure (roads, plumbing, power, etc.) which isn't free.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      No, of course not. But the claim was about the unavailability of space, not of man-made infrastructure.
      - QuercusMax 2y ago
        I said we don't have enough earths to support everyone living in sprawl. That's talking about resources, not just land.
  - jandrese 2y ago
    If that is your plan you need teleporters for everybody so you don't need to pave the world to get basic access.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      It's not my plan. I was just evaluating one aspect of its practicality. It would be a shitty idea to propose that everyone live in exactly the same way. Diversity is generally good. It's nice to have some options available. (Even with universal teleporters, diversity is generally good.)
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
Reworded: I love that my car lets me travel alone and without paying the full cost of the miles I log. I'm either terrified of public transit and/or the experiences I've had on it have generally sucked. I prefer bigger everything because I rarely think about the downsides and externalities, and was told from birth that bigger is better. I prefer a large house as long because I can afford somebody else to clean and maintain it, along with the utility bills and property taxes. I prefer a larger garden under the same conditions. I prefer stores that dominate and distort the market and allow me to avoid human interactions.
- throwaway22032 2y ago
  It would be more polite and useful to ask me to clarify rather than producing a strawman. I don't prefer driving because it is inexpensive, I prefer it because it has greater utility for me. If the cost of fuel doubled or more I would still do it, I'd just be a bit more efficient with the journeys I do make. I'm not terrified of the tube/trains/buses, I use them. It's just a bit shit, doesn't go to loads of places I want to go, and is generally less comfortable. I do think that bigger is better. I don't pay for someone to clean or maintain my house, I do it myself. I haven't been told that bigger is better, it simply is. For example, just yesterday I made a table. In order to do that I needed enough space to work in and store my tools. I could not do this in a smaller house or apartment. Theoretically I could hire a workshop or go to a hackspace but that would be substantially more hassle than just walking into my garden or the garage or whatever. I like human interactions. Just not with endless hordes in a super dense city centre. I prefer chatting with my neighbours, or someone on a hiking trail, or having people over, etc. It sounds as if you just have different preferences to me. Different hobbies, desires, etc. That's fine, that's why you don't prefer driving. I do.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    I live in a small village of 250 people in rural New Mexico, 25 miles from the nearest town. To get to almost anywhere I have to drive. When I socialize, it is mostly with neighbors or people on hiking trails. I have a large set of tools out back and space to use them. Don't assume that my preferences are so different from yours (though your use of "the tube" suggests that you're located in SE England, so many things may be different). My point was that all the preferences you expressed come with a cost, not only to you, but to everything and everyone else as well. Talking about these things as if they are merely personal choices is misleading, they are actually personal choices that, in aggregate, shape the world we all get to live in. And the specific set of choices that you listed, for the most part, in aggregate, have a negative impact on the world. I'm a participant in that too, clearly.

bcrosby95 2y ago

I'm curious, do you feel the same for places that reach 40F? 30F? Because heating is a bigger problem than cooling when it comes to contributions towards climate change. Why do I only ever see people railing against people living in hot places, rather than people living in cold places?

jedberg 2y ago
It's a lot easier to add heat to survive in a cold place than take away heat in a hot place. Kinda like how people complain in an office "Can we turn down the thermostat? You can put on a coat but I can't take my skin off".
- maxbond 2y ago
  Additionally, when you add new construction to a hot place, the additional sidewalk and asphalt makes it hotter. Adding new construction to a cold place doesn't make it colder.
- brianshaler 2y ago
  I think the point GP was making was that hot daytime temperatures in desert climates tend to coincide with peak renewable energy generation, while at higher latitudes in cloudier places the the source of energy is more likely to be from combustion.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    If we're only worried about temperature, sure But fresh water is a pretty huge concern as well and moving/producing large amounts of that in extremely hot areas is going to more than offset the difference in heating costs
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  Given the heat pump technology that we have these days, moving heat from A to B is roughly the same as moving it from B to A.

SoftTalker 2y ago

No real issue with installing solar, but the panels are dark. Won't that contribute to the heat island effect, especially considering that among the remediations proposed are white roofs and pavement?

brianshaler 2y ago
A decade or two ago there was a push to paint as many roofs white as possible, which is why you may intuit dark is bad. Black surfaces convert absorb light energy and convert it into heat. Solar panels do get hot, but part of the point is to turn as much of that light energy as possible into electrical energy.

dyauspitr 2y ago

I much prefer hot af to an icy hellhole. Heating takes up a huge amount of energy and you can’t really do it in an environmentally friendly way unless you get creative. The good thing about the heat is when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy. It’s a cooling solution that scales itself with the temperature.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
> The good thing about the heat is when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy. Incorrect. Peak PV efficiency occurs at relatively low temperatures. Perhaps you mean "when it is hot, there tends to be lots of sunshine, and so there's lot of PV generation" ? That's true of some places (Southern CA, AZ, NV, NM) but less true of others (Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia etc).
accrual 2y ago
> when it’s the hottest, solar panels generate the most energy That's not true. > It may seem counterintuitive, but solar panel efficiency is negatively affected by temperature increases. Photovoltaic modules are tested at a temperature of 25° C - about 77° F, and depending on their installed location, heat can reduce output efficiency by 10-25%. As the solar panel's temperature increases, its output current increases exponentially while the voltage output decreases linearly. In fact, voltage reduction is so predictable that it can be used to measure temperature accurately. [0] > Home solar panels are tested at 25 °C (77 °F), and thus solar panel temperature will generally range between 15 °C and 35 °C during which solar cells will produce at maximum efficiency. However, solar panels can get as hot as 65 °C (149 °F), at which point solar cell efficiency will be hindered. [1] [0] https://www.greentechrenewables.com/article/how-does-heat-affect-solar-panel-efficiencies https://www.greentechrenewables.com/article/how-does-heat-af... [1] https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-panel-temperature-overheating/ https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-panel-temperature-ove...
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Either ways, if it’s hot there is going to be a lot of uninterrupted sunlight.

hosh 2y ago

I live in Phoenix now. My wife and I are planning to move away from here in two years. We were only here because of circumstances outside of our control and now those circumstances are no longer applicable. Phoenix's main economic driver is real estate development and speculation since the 60s. It has very little in the way of real wealth that serves as a foundation (other than ASU and the two silicon fabs that are there now). A lot of people come here thinking it is affordable cost of living (and it is not that affordable in 2024), but I don't think many residents here really know why they live in Phoenix either.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Best time to get out of a market is before everyone else is running for the door. Lots of stranded assets and sadness ahead for folks who held on to assets too long in the wrong places. https://www.marketplace.org/2024/05/28/are-we-in-the-midst-of-a-climate-housing-bubble/ https://www.marketplace.org/2024/05/28/are-we-in-the-midst-o... http://www.deltaterracapital.com/ http://www.deltaterracapital.com/