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Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe?

jakewins 2y ago
If you dig a bit you’ll find studies that show things like “95% of vehicles are driven less than <some number much smaller than standard EV 400km range> per day” So no, I don’t think range is a huge issue, and fast charging infra is a lot better in EU than US in my experience. Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous
- aaomidi 2y ago
  > Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous 100%. Honestly, I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done. Both: 1. Better bike lanes, everywhere, well maintained throughout seasons with good government subsidies on ebikes. 2. Public transit density and focus on lowering wait on connections. Basically, look at what Switzerland has done and try to copy it.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done. And I hope for all wars and world famine to end and all employers to let me WFH so I won't need a car and to raise my salary by at least inflation every year. The thing is we rarely get what we wish for, and in the EU countries I've been it's not really improving at the rate needed for people to give up on cars. The reality is the public transportation infra develops much slower than the demand shifts on the ground, hence why cars will always be with us.
VBprogrammer 2y ago
I wouldn't say range is really a problem outside of a few groups - people who tow horses or caravans, people who use their car routinely for long journeys. The challenge, certainly in the UK, is that only half the population has the potential to charge their car "off-street" and the roll out of on street charging is slow and the costs mean it could cost more than conventional car - which given it's also more expensive makes it a challenge to justify.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Spamming posts with 4 pieces of 16A outlets shouldn't be too hard though. That is essentially how marinas might look, or parking lots in countries with alot of snow for cabin heaters. Alas, I believe the poor in rentals will just end up with shitty rent seeking app-driven spyware chargers.
Moldoteck 2y ago
depends, in terms of territory us is big, but you don't randomly travel east to west coast just like you don't randomly travel portugal to estonia. Most car trips in both us and eu are pretty small and can easily fit current ev range for most ppl/cars
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe? For a lot of people yeah. The cars isn't just for trips to work and the supermarket (which sometimes can be done by foot, public transport or bicycle), but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. You can call it an edge case, but edge cases matter to car owners if they can only afford one car per household. Also, a lot of people in the EU work in one country but have family in another and commute by care quite often. Charging speed and infra density isn't there to suport these cases.
- aaomidi 2y ago
  > but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. Right, and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? Like, I've now done 4 cross country trips in the US (PA <-> FL <-> WA) in both summer, and winter. With the pre-heat-pump-for-heating Tesla Model 3. I basically had to charge one to two times a day, for about 20-30 minutes each time. This was genuinely a good way to force me to stop and take a break too. I don't really consider these cars a limitation for long distance trips either?
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Good for you. But I'm talking about Europe, not the US. And most don't have (and can't afford) Teslas here. Maybe in Norway and Switzerland, but not all Europe is like that. A lot of non-supercharger infra here is non-existent or slow charging meaning long distance trips are gonna be much longer and less predictable, hence why those who rent cars for long distance trips never rent EVs. >and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? You've never interacted with non-supercharger chargers have you? Like broken ones with issues, or crap payment systems that don't work. It's the kind of things giving people major anxiety.
    - aaomidi 2y ago
      That’s fair.
oggy 2y ago
Maybe not range per se, but there are a couple of Europe-specific things that make EVs less attractive. First, many people live in apartment buildings and park their cars on the street, with no charging facilities. So they'd have to make that supercharger trip pretty often. Second, on any given Saturday in July and August there will be millions of people driving for vacation (1000+ km not being uncommon), mostly to the Mediterranean or back to their country of origin (Eastern Europe, Balkans, Turkey). In this period I've already ended up queuing for 10-15 minutes for gas - I can imagine it would be worse without chargers. Also, people who take their car to the poorer European countries often do it because of poor public transport infrastructure there, so the likely poorer EV infrastructure there would play somewhat of a role as well (though likely minor).

jakewins 2y ago

If you dig a bit you’ll find studies that show things like “95% of vehicles are driven less than <some number much smaller than standard EV 400km range> per day” So no, I don’t think range is a huge issue, and fast charging infra is a lot better in EU than US in my experience. Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous

aaomidi 2y ago
> Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous 100%. Honestly, I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done. Both: 1. Better bike lanes, everywhere, well maintained throughout seasons with good government subsidies on ebikes. 2. Public transit density and focus on lowering wait on connections. Basically, look at what Switzerland has done and try to copy it.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done. And I hope for all wars and world famine to end and all employers to let me WFH so I won't need a car and to raise my salary by at least inflation every year. The thing is we rarely get what we wish for, and in the EU countries I've been it's not really improving at the rate needed for people to give up on cars. The reality is the public transportation infra develops much slower than the demand shifts on the ground, hence why cars will always be with us.

VBprogrammer 2y ago

I wouldn't say range is really a problem outside of a few groups - people who tow horses or caravans, people who use their car routinely for long journeys. The challenge, certainly in the UK, is that only half the population has the potential to charge their car "off-street" and the roll out of on street charging is slow and the costs mean it could cost more than conventional car - which given it's also more expensive makes it a challenge to justify.

rightbyte 2y ago
Spamming posts with 4 pieces of 16A outlets shouldn't be too hard though. That is essentially how marinas might look, or parking lots in countries with alot of snow for cabin heaters. Alas, I believe the poor in rentals will just end up with shitty rent seeking app-driven spyware chargers.

Moldoteck 2y ago

depends, in terms of territory us is big, but you don't randomly travel east to west coast just like you don't randomly travel portugal to estonia. Most car trips in both us and eu are pretty small and can easily fit current ev range for most ppl/cars

Rinzler89 2y ago

>Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe? For a lot of people yeah. The cars isn't just for trips to work and the supermarket (which sometimes can be done by foot, public transport or bicycle), but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. You can call it an edge case, but edge cases matter to car owners if they can only afford one car per household. Also, a lot of people in the EU work in one country but have family in another and commute by care quite often. Charging speed and infra density isn't there to suport these cases.

aaomidi 2y ago
> but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. Right, and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? Like, I've now done 4 cross country trips in the US (PA <-> FL <-> WA) in both summer, and winter. With the pre-heat-pump-for-heating Tesla Model 3. I basically had to charge one to two times a day, for about 20-30 minutes each time. This was genuinely a good way to force me to stop and take a break too. I don't really consider these cars a limitation for long distance trips either?
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Good for you. But I'm talking about Europe, not the US. And most don't have (and can't afford) Teslas here. Maybe in Norway and Switzerland, but not all Europe is like that. A lot of non-supercharger infra here is non-existent or slow charging meaning long distance trips are gonna be much longer and less predictable, hence why those who rent cars for long distance trips never rent EVs. >and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? You've never interacted with non-supercharger chargers have you? Like broken ones with issues, or crap payment systems that don't work. It's the kind of things giving people major anxiety.
  - aaomidi 2y ago
    That’s fair.

oggy 2y ago

Maybe not range per se, but there are a couple of Europe-specific things that make EVs less attractive. First, many people live in apartment buildings and park their cars on the street, with no charging facilities. So they'd have to make that supercharger trip pretty often. Second, on any given Saturday in July and August there will be millions of people driving for vacation (1000+ km not being uncommon), mostly to the Mediterranean or back to their country of origin (Eastern Europe, Balkans, Turkey). In this period I've already ended up queuing for 10-15 minutes for gas - I can imagine it would be worse without chargers. Also, people who take their car to the poorer European countries often do it because of poor public transport infrastructure there, so the likely poorer EV infrastructure there would play somewhat of a role as well (though likely minor).