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The problem isn't friends who are fraudsters. The problem is that a lot of people are automatically and blindly loyal to anything that presents itself as "scien

The problem isn't friends who are fraudsters. The problem is that a lot of people are automatically and blindly loyal to anything that presents itself as "science", because they perceive it as being ideologically on their side. Such people aren't interested in details. If you attack fraud all they hear is that you're attacking good and noble scientists who are only trying to save the world from {cancer,misinformation,CO2,COVID,whatever} and what sort of monster would do that? Are you a right winger ... friend?

bell-cot 2y ago
Yep. And, sadly, you can replace "science" with "Roman Catholic Church", or any number of socially-similar human social institutions, and the story is the same. There's a powerful hierarchy invested in the status quo, and a large mob of "little people" at the bottom - who can turn nasty fast if their simplistic worldview seems threatened.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  I think it's less about institutions and authority - it's more about you attacking them. People eating up firehose of bullshit from YouTube influencers, or regurgitating nonsense about "chemicals" and processed foods, etc. don't stand on the side of any institutions. But if you try to disabuse them of their false beliefs, most people around you will side with them - not because they're loyal to the same institutions, but because you're the aggressor, the party that is not nice, that rocks the boat. It's that behavior, regardless of target or merits, I believe people have aversion to. Or put in another way: the first person in a group to get agitated about something has to spend a lot of effort justifying their agitation to the group, because by default, the group won't support or even stay neutral - they'll get weirded out, and/or even shun the agitated person.
  - chasmermasmer 2y ago
    ”regurgitating nonsense about chemicals and processed foods, etc” That is not nonsense — you are doing yourself a huge disservice here by ignoring ideas categorically on ideological grounds.

bell-cot 2y ago

Yep. And, sadly, you can replace "science" with "Roman Catholic Church", or any number of socially-similar human social institutions, and the story is the same. There's a powerful hierarchy invested in the status quo, and a large mob of "little people" at the bottom - who can turn nasty fast if their simplistic worldview seems threatened.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
I think it's less about institutions and authority - it's more about you attacking them. People eating up firehose of bullshit from YouTube influencers, or regurgitating nonsense about "chemicals" and processed foods, etc. don't stand on the side of any institutions. But if you try to disabuse them of their false beliefs, most people around you will side with them - not because they're loyal to the same institutions, but because you're the aggressor, the party that is not nice, that rocks the boat. It's that behavior, regardless of target or merits, I believe people have aversion to. Or put in another way: the first person in a group to get agitated about something has to spend a lot of effort justifying their agitation to the group, because by default, the group won't support or even stay neutral - they'll get weirded out, and/or even shun the agitated person.
- chasmermasmer 2y ago
  ”regurgitating nonsense about chemicals and processed foods, etc” That is not nonsense — you are doing yourself a huge disservice here by ignoring ideas categorically on ideological grounds.