5 ms·

Ok but this is also going to mean people are going to keep long lived forks, like Android, that do support binary drivers.

bayindirh 2y ago
Maybe then companies should stop hiding their bad code and binary hacks behind closed source drivers and write proper open source ones instead. If they are using 3rd party IP, they should work with the providers for compromises, or license the patents and re-implement them. AMD and Intel did great strides on these fronts, not counting the money-loving people called HDMI forum.
- oblio 2y ago
  I'd agree with you, but ever since mobile devices have taken off, aren't we much worse than before? In the last peak PC years, say, before 2011, I was under the impression that hardware vendors were starting to play ball, but now things seem super locked down and Linux seems to be falling behind in this tug of war between FOSS - binary-only.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    I think the problem with mobile devices is not the software but the hardware. These devices are locked down partly because of business interests (planned obsolescence), but another part is personal identity security. A run-of-the-mill Android or iOS device carries more secrets inside, which have much more weight (biometric data, TOTP, serial numbers used as secure tokens/unique identifiers, etc). This situation makes them a "trusted security device," and allowing tampering with it opens an unpleasant can of worms. For example, during my short Android stint, I found out that no custom ROM can talk with the secure element in my SIM, and I'm locked out of my e-signature, which is not pleasant. If manufacturers can find a good way to make these secure elements trustworthy without the need to close down the platform and weld shut, I think we can work around graphics and Wi-Fi drivers. Of course, we also have the "radio security" problem. Still, I think it can be solved by moving the wireless radio to an independent IP block inside the processor with a dedicated postbox and firmware system. While I'd love to have completely open radio firmware, the wireless world is much more complex (I'm a newbie HAM operator, so I have some slight ideas). So, the reasons for closing down a mobile device are varied, but the list indeed contains the desire for more money. If one of the hardware manufacturers decides to spend the money and pull the trigger (like AMD did with its HDMI/HDCP block), we can have secure systems that do not need locking down. Still, I'm not holding my breath, because while Apple loves to leave doors for tinkerers on their laptops, iPhone is their Fort Knox. On the other hand, I don't have the slightest confidence in the company called Broadcom to do the right thing.
    - oblio 2y ago
      Interesting details, thank you for providing them! Regarding this: > Still, I'm not holding my breath, because while Apple loves to leave doors for tinkerers on their laptops, iPhone is their Fort Knox. People don't realize, but 99% of what Apple does hinges on the iPhone. The rest of the products pack a much lower punch if the iPhone were to vanish from the face of the Earth completely. It's the product all their customers have and they have it at all times with them. It's the product that's probably the easiest to use and the easiest to connect to other things. So yeah, the iPhone will probably be the last non-military device on the planet to be opened up :-)
- amadeuspagel 2y ago
  Nvidia became the biggest company on earth in part thanks to closed source drivers, allowing them to invest more into software.
  - chmod775 2y ago
    Nvidia isn't even in the top 50 of largest companies by any sensible metric.
    - bmacho 2y ago
      https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ By market cap, nvidia is the 3rd biggest one, about as big as google and facebook together. Market cap is a sensible metric.
      - hajile 2y ago
        Market cap for tech companies is a bubble. It has more in common with the lottery total than with a representation of real value.
      - chmod775 2y ago
        Then I guess Rhodium is the largest metal and the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station is the largest building in Britain. If you conflate value with size, both terms become near useless. Value can only mean something in relation to something else. Picture this: You have a large company with thousands of employees having similar revenue to their competitor, which accomplishes the same with one employee and a much smaller operation. Which one is likely to be more valuable? Obviously the smaller one. If we however conflate value with size, as is so often done in popular economics, just pointing out this single fact becomes a complicated exercise of having to carefully employ language that we neutered for no good reason at all. Not to speak of all the misunderstandings this is going to create with people who aren't used to this imprecise use of the English language. If you mean revenue, say revenue, if you mean value, say value, if you mean size, say size. Don't use "large" to say "valuable". Why would you do that if there's a perfectly good word already? Imprecise language is often used to either confuse or leave open an avenue to cover one's ass later... which brings us back to popular economics.
jeffbee 2y ago
This is not a difference between ChromeOS and Android. ChromeOS is replete with binary vendor blobs, which is why the webcams, wifi, and touchpads work correctly on Chromebooks and poorly or not at all on other laptops running vanilla Linux.

bayindirh 2y ago

Maybe then companies should stop hiding their bad code and binary hacks behind closed source drivers and write proper open source ones instead. If they are using 3rd party IP, they should work with the providers for compromises, or license the patents and re-implement them. AMD and Intel did great strides on these fronts, not counting the money-loving people called HDMI forum.

oblio 2y ago
I'd agree with you, but ever since mobile devices have taken off, aren't we much worse than before? In the last peak PC years, say, before 2011, I was under the impression that hardware vendors were starting to play ball, but now things seem super locked down and Linux seems to be falling behind in this tug of war between FOSS - binary-only.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  I think the problem with mobile devices is not the software but the hardware. These devices are locked down partly because of business interests (planned obsolescence), but another part is personal identity security. A run-of-the-mill Android or iOS device carries more secrets inside, which have much more weight (biometric data, TOTP, serial numbers used as secure tokens/unique identifiers, etc). This situation makes them a "trusted security device," and allowing tampering with it opens an unpleasant can of worms. For example, during my short Android stint, I found out that no custom ROM can talk with the secure element in my SIM, and I'm locked out of my e-signature, which is not pleasant. If manufacturers can find a good way to make these secure elements trustworthy without the need to close down the platform and weld shut, I think we can work around graphics and Wi-Fi drivers. Of course, we also have the "radio security" problem. Still, I think it can be solved by moving the wireless radio to an independent IP block inside the processor with a dedicated postbox and firmware system. While I'd love to have completely open radio firmware, the wireless world is much more complex (I'm a newbie HAM operator, so I have some slight ideas). So, the reasons for closing down a mobile device are varied, but the list indeed contains the desire for more money. If one of the hardware manufacturers decides to spend the money and pull the trigger (like AMD did with its HDMI/HDCP block), we can have secure systems that do not need locking down. Still, I'm not holding my breath, because while Apple loves to leave doors for tinkerers on their laptops, iPhone is their Fort Knox. On the other hand, I don't have the slightest confidence in the company called Broadcom to do the right thing.
  - oblio 2y ago
    Interesting details, thank you for providing them! Regarding this: > Still, I'm not holding my breath, because while Apple loves to leave doors for tinkerers on their laptops, iPhone is their Fort Knox. People don't realize, but 99% of what Apple does hinges on the iPhone. The rest of the products pack a much lower punch if the iPhone were to vanish from the face of the Earth completely. It's the product all their customers have and they have it at all times with them. It's the product that's probably the easiest to use and the easiest to connect to other things. So yeah, the iPhone will probably be the last non-military device on the planet to be opened up :-)
amadeuspagel 2y ago
Nvidia became the biggest company on earth in part thanks to closed source drivers, allowing them to invest more into software.
- chmod775 2y ago
  Nvidia isn't even in the top 50 of largest companies by any sensible metric.
  - bmacho 2y ago
    https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ By market cap, nvidia is the 3rd biggest one, about as big as google and facebook together. Market cap is a sensible metric.
    - hajile 2y ago
      Market cap for tech companies is a bubble. It has more in common with the lottery total than with a representation of real value.
    - chmod775 2y ago
      Then I guess Rhodium is the largest metal and the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station is the largest building in Britain. If you conflate value with size, both terms become near useless. Value can only mean something in relation to something else. Picture this: You have a large company with thousands of employees having similar revenue to their competitor, which accomplishes the same with one employee and a much smaller operation. Which one is likely to be more valuable? Obviously the smaller one. If we however conflate value with size, as is so often done in popular economics, just pointing out this single fact becomes a complicated exercise of having to carefully employ language that we neutered for no good reason at all. Not to speak of all the misunderstandings this is going to create with people who aren't used to this imprecise use of the English language. If you mean revenue, say revenue, if you mean value, say value, if you mean size, say size. Don't use "large" to say "valuable". Why would you do that if there's a perfectly good word already? Imprecise language is often used to either confuse or leave open an avenue to cover one's ass later... which brings us back to popular economics.

jeffbee 2y ago

This is not a difference between ChromeOS and Android. ChromeOS is replete with binary vendor blobs, which is why the webcams, wifi, and touchpads work correctly on Chromebooks and poorly or not at all on other laptops running vanilla Linux.