3 ms·

What part of "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community" did you miss?

by sciurus 14y ago

cookiecaper 14y ago
And who determines what represents a constructive interaction? Is it something that upsets people? If so, doesn't that mean that Debian does not respect religious or ideological beliefs that are interpreted as threatening by the mainstream WASP (as Debian is mainly comprised of WASP contributors)? If so, what was the point of this statement, again?
- sciurus 14y ago
  I believe the point is well-expressed at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html "You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others. It is, like most things in life, a balance. There's an old saying: the problem with an open mind is that people throw all kinds of crap into it. Neither one's mind nor one's community should be too open. Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing to allow others to be included that they should find a different project to be part of. The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align ourselves with."
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    And the given diversity statement certainly does not reflect any meaningful definition of the "sort of behavior [Debian] is actively seeking out". Do you not see the contradiction in the message you quoted? >Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing to allow others to be included [to leave]. This is self-contradictory unless there is no party that is "not willing to allow others to be included". You necessarily exclude someone. Is the line then, "We allow anyone who is not actively trying to get us to disallow someone else?" And if so, wouldn't that make anyone pointing out WBC-esque signatures an excluder who would have to be excluded to remain ideologically sound? What about people who are not specifically trying to exclude people? What if they say saying "God is OK with [group I dislike] contributing to Debian, but that group is still evil"? Is this tantamount to exclusion because it makes the individual feel ostracized, and if so, how do we tell when a statement is sufficiently likely to cause a feeling of ostracization in a person such that we have to stop it? What about divisive political issues? Surely there are Debian contributors who oppose gay marriage on primarily religious grounds and surely there are Debian contributors who support it. Wouldn't any advocacy of either position be "non-welcoming" to some significant and contributory group? Isn't saying, "Yeah, but people who [oppose|support] gay marriage are not worth my energy anyway" exclusive? The statement is so broad that it means nothing.
    - sciurus 14y ago
      > the given diversity statement certainly does not reflect any meaningful definition of the "sort of behavior [Debian] is actively seeking out". Sure it does. The project seeks behavior that welcomes others. You might even say that Debian is encouraging Ubuntu [0] from its contributors. :-) [0] which as a philosophy has been summarized as "humanity towards others", and as a linux distribution has a code of conduct that asks members to "Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project and with users of Ubuntu." - http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct

What part of "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community" did you miss?

by sciurus 14y ago

What part of "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community" did you miss?

cookiecaper 14y ago

And who determines what represents a constructive interaction? Is it something that upsets people? If so, doesn't that mean that Debian does not respect religious or ideological beliefs that are interpreted as threatening by the mainstream WASP (as Debian is mainly comprised of WASP contributors)? If so, what was the point of this statement, again?

sciurus 14y ago
I believe the point is well-expressed at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html "You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others. It is, like most things in life, a balance. There's an old saying: the problem with an open mind is that people throw all kinds of crap into it. Neither one's mind nor one's community should be too open. Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing to allow others to be included that they should find a different project to be part of. The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align ourselves with."
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  And the given diversity statement certainly does not reflect any meaningful definition of the "sort of behavior [Debian] is actively seeking out". Do you not see the contradiction in the message you quoted? >Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing to allow others to be included [to leave]. This is self-contradictory unless there is no party that is "not willing to allow others to be included". You necessarily exclude someone. Is the line then, "We allow anyone who is not actively trying to get us to disallow someone else?" And if so, wouldn't that make anyone pointing out WBC-esque signatures an excluder who would have to be excluded to remain ideologically sound? What about people who are not specifically trying to exclude people? What if they say saying "God is OK with [group I dislike] contributing to Debian, but that group is still evil"? Is this tantamount to exclusion because it makes the individual feel ostracized, and if so, how do we tell when a statement is sufficiently likely to cause a feeling of ostracization in a person such that we have to stop it? What about divisive political issues? Surely there are Debian contributors who oppose gay marriage on primarily religious grounds and surely there are Debian contributors who support it. Wouldn't any advocacy of either position be "non-welcoming" to some significant and contributory group? Isn't saying, "Yeah, but people who [oppose|support] gay marriage are not worth my energy anyway" exclusive? The statement is so broad that it means nothing.
  - sciurus 14y ago
    > the given diversity statement certainly does not reflect any meaningful definition of the "sort of behavior [Debian] is actively seeking out". Sure it does. The project seeks behavior that welcomes others. You might even say that Debian is encouraging Ubuntu [0] from its contributors. :-) [0] which as a philosophy has been summarized as "humanity towards others", and as a linux distribution has a code of conduct that asks members to "Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project and with users of Ubuntu." - http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct