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The law will prohibit the providers of Apple's iOS and Google's Android smartphone operating systems, app stores and payment platforms from preventing the sale
by Johnny555 2y ago
The law will prohibit the providers of Apple's iOS and Google's Android smartphone operating systems, app stores and payment platforms from preventing the sale of apps and services that directly compete with the native platforms' own.
I'm not sure what this means -- does this just mean that Apple can't prevent a third party from selling an app that does something an Apple app does, or does it mean they have to allow third party app stores? Or is it more about opening the payment platform so an app can take direct payments instead of having to go through Apple?
- BadHumans 2y agoI read this as Apple can't ban Spotify because they have Apple Music. The question is what happens when an app is competing with Apple but also is breaking Apple's TOS?
- b112 2y agoI think Apple might have to enforce the ToS on their own apps, if they want to levy them on competition, with such a law. But that's me thinking common law thoughts, not sure whst Japan's legal system is like. (There are alot lf things like this, such as when you are a distributor selling to more than your own stores.)
- BadHumans 2y agoThe issue that Spotify and others take with Apple is their 30% cut. So Spotify adds a payment processor that doesn't involve Apple, then what?
- FpUser 2y agoThen Apple will be forced to compete on merits
- BadHumans 2y agoI think that is what you would like to happen but this would have to play out in court because Apple makes so much money from that 30% they would fight it tooth and nail.
- posguy 2y agoNo, Apple will still have the advantage of not being restricted like 3rd party apps when it comes to running background activities, access to hardware features they haven't published APIs for, and integration opportunities via private Apple only APIs amongst their various apps and platforms that 3rd party apps can't replicate since Apple literally doesn't make those knobs available to them. Why can't my non-Apple laptop start a tethering session automatically with an iPhone when I open its lid? What good reason is there that a 3rd party tool can't generate an auto-reply to a notification from a chat app with my consent? Lots of user experience niceties that Apple keeps only for their 1st party apps to the detriment of us all. Google does similar things on Android, but at least you can get most of these features through 3rd party stores like F-Droid.
- seec 2y agoYeah, but the only reason devs are not using those "private" APIs is because Apple owns the only distribution possibility. For now, the 3rd party stores are a joke because Apple still has too much control (and the fees are a joke) but I hope the EU runs its course and finally forces them to allow installation of any potential software without any limitations. It is extremely dumb and uncompetitive that iPhones cannot install any apps under the guise of security or whatever. Apple has rested on its laurel and made some stupid choices that seriously limit the potential of their hardware. It's funny how they announced many features that people have wanted for years at this WWDC; they are starting to feel the pressure, I guess.
- lobochrome 2y agoThe 30% fee is not (only) for payments. It's a royalty for the core platform.
- troupo 2y agoWhy doesn't the same logic apply to MacOS? Perhaps because that "royalty" has already been paid by users who bought the device?
- pineaux 2y agoNo, because people wont accept it in the "old system".
- troupo 2y agoAccept what? Greediness? Apple used to charge for MacOS. And then they made it free because hardware sales more than made up for any costs of the platform. Apple themselves claim they don't care if AppStore is profitable. Schiller himself suggested they cap AppStore revenue at 1 billion. If it's so costly for them to run why don't they let devs and users use the alternatives? Alternative payment methods, alternative app distribution etc.? Edit. Here's Apple financial report for 2023: https://s2.q4cdn.com/470004039/files/doc_earnings/2023/q4/filing/_10-K-Q4-2023-As-Filed.pdf https://s2.q4cdn.com/470004039/files/doc_earnings/2023/q4/fi... - iPhone alone generated 200 billion in sales - The entirety of their operational expenses is 54 billion Apple's customers have already paid for whatever expenses Apple is incurring for the "core platform"
- BelleOfTheBall 2y agoCouldn't they argue that these royalties don't apply if payments aren't routed through the core platform? Such as saying "oh, well, the user paid through the web version of Spotify, not the iOS one"?
- Zak 2y agoApple certainly looks at it that way, but is not legally entitled to collect a royalty simply for making apps that run on its operating system. Instead, they have created a technical mechanism to do so. The EU and Japan have decided that's unfair.
- shiroiushi 2y agoLike every country that isn't Anglophone, Japan does not have a common law system, it's based on Germany's civil law system IIRC.
- wordofx 2y ago[flagged]
- shiroiushi 2y agoWTF? This must be the dumbest comment of the day here. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that only Anglophone (which refers to a language, not a race) countries use the British common-law system.
- lesuorac 2y agoJapan is purple but that still means they're not Common law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)#:~:text=The%20civil%20law%20system%20is,decisions%20as%20legally%20binding%20precedent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)#:~:te....
- throwaway2037 2y agoUS is primarily English speaking and is not common law based. I assume the same is true for many Carribbean and Pacific island nations.
- shiroiushi 2y agoWhat universe do you live in? The US is absolutely a common law country.
- arrosenberg 2y agoThe answer is obvious, because you can’t fairly resolve a conflict of interest like that - alignment between publishers and distributors in the same vertical should be banned.
- cromka 2y agoThe conclusion I think is they’d have to establish an independent arbitration panel and put them in charge. But they’ll lose control over their user experience then, so it’s full circle.
- arrosenberg 2y agoThats the kind of regulation that inevitably fails for one reason or another, but usually capture. Ordering the break up the OS and App Store is a self-executing and relatively permanent solution that can’t be corrupted nearly as easily.
- alwayslikethis 2y agoRealistically, no hardware manufacturer of a significant size (let's say 100k total devices) should be allowed to dictate what software can be distributed to users. It opens up all kinds of unfair business practices.
- InitialLastName 2y agoRealistically, including avionics and medical devices where the software is restricted by regulation (in theory) and where the manufacturer is legally liable for failure of their device? More specifically, the radio in an iPhone can almost certainly be made to operate outside of licensed/compliant limits by tweaking the software. Should they be forced to allow that but still held accountable when their device is noncompliant?
- shiroiushi 2y ago>the radio in an iPhone can almost certainly be made to operate outside of licensed/compliant limits by tweaking the software. Should they be forced to allow that but still held accountable when their device is noncompliant? I can see an argument for this. Nothing forced Apple to design their hardware this way: they could have built licensing/compliance limits into the hardware itself. But they didn't want to do that because they wanted to use the same HW for all markets, and different governments have different rules about which frequency bands are allowed. Of course, this then brings up the question: if they did make slightly different HW per-market (perhaps with 1-time fuses), what happens when someone brings their iPhone from one country to another and they've modified it to ignore any new region restrictions (Apple could still use SW to force new restrictions, though they can't allow anything new because of the HW restrictions) and it's broadcasting on an unallowed band?
- seydor 2y agoIt will have to go to court
- a_victorp 2y agoApple's TOS does not have the same standing as a law, so whenever Apple's TOS is incompatible with Japan's law it probably will not be able to be enforced in Japan
- nottorp 2y agoConsidering this is a law, Apple's TOS becomes about not worth the toilet paper you could print it on. Contracts can't contradict existing law. Even in the US, I think.
- stavros 2y agoI hate Apple's app store policies as much as the next guy, but does this mean I can make malware that plays music and Apple has to allow it in the app store?
- BiteCode_dev 2y agoNo because Malware breaks the law.
- DetroitThrow 2y agoPresumably Apple could still legally restrict malware because they are not distributing their own versions of malware, yes?
- stavros 2y agoBut then they can restrict anything, on the basis that the software they're restricting does more than their software.
- DetroitThrow 2y agoI was being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I find your premise very fun when thinking about how quickly it can be taken to extremes with criminal or civil damages. Thankfully, our legal systems are much better equipped to deal with ambiguity like this than I think you are proposing.
- stavros 2y agoI guess I was more saying that ambiguous laws can cause more harm than good, but then I was basing that on the title of the article of a summary of a translation of a summary of a law, so I'm probably wrong :P
- kazinator 2y agoIn all likelihood, some of the pro-competitive laws will render illegal those terms of the TOS which are anti-competitive. Any rule in a TOS that is illegal is effectively tossed.
- iansinnott 2y agoAlso wondering, since to be truly competitive (on iOS) developers would need access to APIs they can't currently use.
- KerrAvon 2y agoLike what?
- fragmede 2y agoIt's rather dated, but https://github.com/nst/iOS-Runtime-Headers https://github.com/nst/iOS-Runtime-Headers
- idle_zealot 2y agoJIT code execution, NFC access, ability to use microphone and webcam while multi-tasking, to name the ones I've encountered.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoPretty sure normal apps can use the mic when multitasking
- reaperducer 2y agoYep. The Cornell University bird identification app listens for birds just fine while the user is doing something else.
- idle_zealot 2y agoIt's specifically the camera feed that cannot be used while doing split view or other multitasking modes on the iPad, unless the app has Apple's special blessing. This very clearly puts any new or small video chatting apps at a disadvantage compared to incumbents.
- al_borland 2y agoAs a user, I don't want any apps to have direct access to sensing hardware without going through Apple's APIs that control prompt for access and respect user settings.
- jojobas 2y agoAn app store would be one of the cases where third parties might want to do what Apple does. Once that's done there's no case for payments to go through Apple.
- da768 2y agoJust waiting for Adobe Store, Amazon Store, Microsoft Store, Epic Games Store, etc. to be installed on every phones soon. Current status isn't normal, but no one would complain about it if transaction fees weren't abusive.
- doctorpangloss 2y ago> Current status isn't normal, but no one would complain about it if transaction fees weren't abusive. This is an oft-repeated misconception. Even if transaction fees were 0%, we'd be way better off with alternative stores. You're just so used to how shitty things are that you can't conceive of a better alternative. Consider that there are plenty of completely free games on Steam that are popular and help those creators find thriving communities. How? They have good discovery. App Store and Google Play sucks in every way. Discovery is awful. Their approach is awful. Why even show download counts and top lists? Stupid, stupid stupid. But you have no choice as a consumer or developer. So the top developers will not complain. What's the point? And anyway, you're complaining about a world where alternatives are viable. Why are alternatives being viable a bad thing. If EGS is paying up front for games and giving them away for free as cross-promo for Fortnite, better that than ad supported garbage. What exactly is the bad thing here, for consumers? The negative aesthetic experience of having more icons? Everyone has to oppose this crushed-in-head line of thinking. One meaingless detail that impacts an extremely low brow part of the aesthetic experience - the fucking home screen icons - should not preclude the gain in meaning from 10k-100k more developers who could flourish in the mobile ecosystem if it were to have working discovery. It has the same energy as requiring Helldivers users to create PSN accounts - offensive only in a strictly aesthetic sense even though successful competition and cross promo benefits everyone. The users' fixation on meaningless aesthetics is wrong. I mean Apple could make discovery pluggable too, all of it could be pluggable and have fewer "icons," this isn't even a real obstacle. There are many, many ideas in this space, and no permissions to do any of it. As it is, the App Store and Google Play are glorified install wizards. Open, install TikTok, Google Maps, whatever. Never visit again. That is 98% of people. That's horrible and its Apple's fault. TikTok already does not pay any fees. This is just to show that you are not right in general, even if you are right about the one company you've heard of that went and took these people to court in this country for an outcome that you should be in favor of.
- numpad0 2y agoThis is sideloading mandate following EU regs. IANAL, details may vary, the spirit is the same.
- mlindner 2y agoThat's not what it says at all though.
- seydor 2y agoi suppose it means that apple+google can no longer ban third party stores too
- numpad0 2y agoTranslator skill/bureaucracy issue. Japanese in Japanese out(btw vice versa). Texts written by a monolingual speaker in Japanese don't translate well, especially if done by the book. There's original Japanese source not linked from the article[0], and longer NHK News source taken from TV news script[1] is available too if you'd like to verify through machine translators. 0: https://nordot.app/1173382143705366598 https://nordot.app/1173382143705366598 1: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240612/k10014478361000.html https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20240612/k10014478361000.ht...
- m463 2y agoI wonder if this compares to or will ever affect well known non-phone japanese platforms such as nintendo or sony
- kevincox 2y agoI would love to see Nintendo throwing a fit if they had to allow homebrew to run on their consoles. And I think it would be good! Why don't they get a cut of every game sale and get to block other companies for producing software for their hardware.
- ulrikrasmussen 2y agoAlso, does this mean that you should be allowed to install different browser engines that compete with Safari?
- MR4D 2y agoI'm just waiting for someone to create a simple app (like notes perhaps?) that has the name "Japan sucks" or "overthrow Japan". The problem lawmakers have (all lawmakers, not just in Japan), is that they don't understand second order effects. [0] [0] - https://fs.blog/second-order-thinking/ https://fs.blog/second-order-thinking/
- maronato 2y ago> from preventing the sale of apps and services I think the important keyword here is “services” which can mean a lot of things. App stores can be considered services. An alternative payment platform is fair game too.