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1. As someone else noted, literally years since you ever had to touch config file by hand. Use Ubuntu, you'll love it. 2. I do believe your view of Unity is a

1. As someone else noted, literally years since you ever had to touch config file by hand. Use Ubuntu, you'll love it. 2. I do believe your view of Unity is a bit odd. Canonical recognized that the state of Linux UI/DE was NOT going to make the leap from programmer. They saw this VIA user studies. That is when they decided to create Unity. And user study after user study Unity keeps coming out ahead of all the other DE in Linux and is on par with usability of current OSX. Point being, Ubuntu is going after users the right way. Unity in 12.04 shows this and the reviews speak to it. 3. Sometimes you simply have to rewrite. This is a fact (sorry Joel) in software. The challenge is to recognize when it is necessary and avoid it when not 100% necessary to achieve your business objectives.

daeken 14y ago
I use Ubuntu, and every time I switch between external displays and my laptop's display, I have to move an xorg.conf file. My external displays are on NVidia Twinview, my internal display is on an Intel GPU. I have no choice but to move my NVidia xorg.conf out of the way when I want to use the internal display, and then move it back when I get home and hook up to my monitors. In 2012.
- simcop2387 14y ago
  Yep that sounds like the horror that is Nvidia-Optimus. There's some kludges out there to do it all on the internal display, i don't know how well it works for mixing the two. I assume you've already looked at Bumblebee to see if it might help your situation?
  - daeken 14y ago
    Bumblebee works if you actually want to use the internal and external at the same time, but I only ever use one or the other. Also, you lose 3d acceleration if you use it, AFAIK.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  Are you using the latest Ubuntu ? They said they improved on multi-monitors support on 12.04. I did not test myself, though.
  - daeken 14y ago
    Yup, 12.04. It's because I'm using the NVidia driver for my externals, and Intel for my internal. No choice in the matter at the moment.
    - esbwhat 14y ago
      You try bumblebee at all?
      - daeken 14y ago
        Bumblebee solves the problem of using them together, and doesn't allow you to actually get 3d acceleration on the Nvidia chip. I just want to be able to easily switch between the two cards, but that won't happen, so the Xorg file moves will be necessary.
- DanBC2 14y ago
  Multiple monitors can be sucky no matter what OS you're using. There are several use cases in OSX that are decidedly sub-optimal, and not particularly rare considering the target audience. I haven't used a modern version of MS Windows, but I had a few problems using Windows 2000 and Windows XP with multiple monitors. I'm pretty sure getting some configurations of multiple monitors working with some software is still a chore.
- glesica 14y ago
  This isn't really a commentary on Linux itself though. Optimus can cause issues on Windows, too. It's new tech and Linux support is at the bottom of vendors' "todo" lists. The problem here is twofold, though I'm not necessarily saying these comments apply to you, you are apparently willing to endure some inconvenience. First, people should always check hardware support before buying a laptop if they intend to install Linux. I'm not trying to be a neck-beaded dick (although I do need to shave), I'm just pointing out that many of the problems people have with Linux stem from well-known incompatibilities that could have been avoided with different hardware choices. Which brings me nicely to the second point... There is a communication issue in the Linux community. We (I'm including myself here) need to stop over-selling Linux. It is not a computing panacea for everyone, and so long as hardware support lags behind Windows "selling" Linux as a drop-in Windows replacement isn't a good strategy. Getting someone to install Ubuntu/Fedora/openSUSE isn't a victory for the community if his hardware isn't compatible and things don't work right. It would be better to tell him that he should think about purchasing a Linux-compatible computer in the future and perhaps directing him to a list of compatible hardware.
- wazoox 14y ago
  Something's wrong with your system. I use Slackware, I have a dual screen setup and no xorg.conf, all was configured with the catalyst panel. My colleague has some Acer Laptop running Ubuntu, and he sometimes connects an external 19" screen he has on his desktop, and he certainly hasn't any xorg.conf (and that's fortunate because he's utterly non-technical).
  - daeken 14y ago
    There's nothing wrong with my system. Neither you nor your colleague have Nvidia Optimus systems, which is why you're not having any issues. My problems are definitely not the norm, but the "Xorg.conf isn't used anymore" meme needs to die; there are still real problems to be addressed. Unless we identify them and deal with them, they'll still be there.
aidenn0 14y ago
I dropped Ubuntu since after weeks of research and discussion, etc the only way I could get it to output acceptable screen resolution on my monitor was to hand enter a MODELINE. a !@#$@#$%@#$ Modeline; I couldn't remember the last time I typed in a modeline before this.
- simcop2387 14y ago
  What kind of monitor? I'm curious to know to avoid them when I want one that doesn't need that kind of thing. The only times recently I've had to do that is for two specific cases, an arcade monitor that was built before EDID was a pipe dream, and a TV that likes to report that it has a native resolution of 320x240. Both of which would have to be worked around on any platform so I don't find it a problem.
  - aidenn0 14y ago
    It is a Sun branded monitor with really broke-ass EDID, and I was using it just fine before having manually (but with a GUI) set the resolution and refresh rate.
sciurus 14y ago
Is there public information on the user studies Canonical has conducted on Unity or other desktop environments? It seems like that information would be very useful to other free software projects. All I can find are reports on empathy and rhythmbox. http://design.canonical.com/the-research/ http://design.canonical.com/the-research/
- ekianjo 14y ago
  I do not think that Canonical would share such data. That kind of research costs money, and they want to keep it to their advantage, most probably. You don't see Microsoft or Google release their user studies results either. Hardly surprising.
- jamesgeck0 14y ago
  The last published usability report on Unity seems to be from April 2011. http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usabilit...
josteink 14y ago
1. As someone else noted, literally years since you ever had to touch config file by hand. Use Ubuntu, you'll love it. Sure. But that wont cure a fundamental problem with the X11/Xorg infrastructure. You cannot quickly and switch desktop orientation, resolution and layout (not to mention drivers) seamlessly like on Windows without killing your entire X-session. Killing your entire session. Jeez. At the root of this problem is an architecture which is lagging on what Microsoft could deliver in Windows 98. You cannot make Windows and reboot-jokes while you have this Achilles-heel dragging your video subsystem. You seriously cannot. And no new version of Ubuntu can overcome this underlying issue, no matter how much fluff and candy they add elsewhere, as long as they rely on the ancient relic that is X11. As far as I know, when Google decided to make Android and ChromeOS (a complete failure as far as any metric goes, but still worth mentioning) they decided: 1. to base it on Linux, because that makes sense and 2. not to base it on X11 because they wanted it to be flexible and they wanted their users not be limited by what architects could think of in the 1984. For end-user Linux to ever become user-friendly Xorg needs a complete architectural overhaul. I cannot see anyone arguing this. And even if seemingly everyone agrees on this, nobody is pushing forward for it to happen. Make of that what you like.
- krunaldo 14y ago
  uh? You can change resolutions on the fly and orientation on the fly. This have been available for ages via xrandr and other things. Via API-calls or through the xrandr cli utility. The only thing that is really ugly in X11 is the protocol, but so is win32 api :)
- jamesgeck0 14y ago
  > You cannot quickly and switch desktop orientation, resolution and layout (not to mention drivers) seamlessly like on Windows without killing your entire X-session. On my Ubuntu system, I can change orientation, resolution, and layout from a little control panel without restarting the session. I have no idea if Xorg restarts; the superficial behavior is almost identical to Windows. From the user's point of view, it doesn't seem to matter. > For end-user Linux to ever become user-friendly Xorg needs a complete architectural overhaul. Every mainstream desktop environment seems to have handled the major aspects of display usability just fine. The only serious issues I've encountered have been one-off bugs related to drivers. > I cannot see anyone arguing this. Everyone agrees X is a mess. But why must we continue to use X and not Wayland?

daeken 14y ago

I use Ubuntu, and every time I switch between external displays and my laptop's display, I have to move an xorg.conf file. My external displays are on NVidia Twinview, my internal display is on an Intel GPU. I have no choice but to move my NVidia xorg.conf out of the way when I want to use the internal display, and then move it back when I get home and hook up to my monitors. In 2012.

simcop2387 14y ago
Yep that sounds like the horror that is Nvidia-Optimus. There's some kludges out there to do it all on the internal display, i don't know how well it works for mixing the two. I assume you've already looked at Bumblebee to see if it might help your situation?
- daeken 14y ago
  Bumblebee works if you actually want to use the internal and external at the same time, but I only ever use one or the other. Also, you lose 3d acceleration if you use it, AFAIK.
ekianjo 14y ago
Are you using the latest Ubuntu ? They said they improved on multi-monitors support on 12.04. I did not test myself, though.
- daeken 14y ago
  Yup, 12.04. It's because I'm using the NVidia driver for my externals, and Intel for my internal. No choice in the matter at the moment.
  - esbwhat 14y ago
    You try bumblebee at all?
    - daeken 14y ago
      Bumblebee solves the problem of using them together, and doesn't allow you to actually get 3d acceleration on the Nvidia chip. I just want to be able to easily switch between the two cards, but that won't happen, so the Xorg file moves will be necessary.
DanBC2 14y ago
Multiple monitors can be sucky no matter what OS you're using. There are several use cases in OSX that are decidedly sub-optimal, and not particularly rare considering the target audience. I haven't used a modern version of MS Windows, but I had a few problems using Windows 2000 and Windows XP with multiple monitors. I'm pretty sure getting some configurations of multiple monitors working with some software is still a chore.
glesica 14y ago
This isn't really a commentary on Linux itself though. Optimus can cause issues on Windows, too. It's new tech and Linux support is at the bottom of vendors' "todo" lists. The problem here is twofold, though I'm not necessarily saying these comments apply to you, you are apparently willing to endure some inconvenience. First, people should always check hardware support before buying a laptop if they intend to install Linux. I'm not trying to be a neck-beaded dick (although I do need to shave), I'm just pointing out that many of the problems people have with Linux stem from well-known incompatibilities that could have been avoided with different hardware choices. Which brings me nicely to the second point... There is a communication issue in the Linux community. We (I'm including myself here) need to stop over-selling Linux. It is not a computing panacea for everyone, and so long as hardware support lags behind Windows "selling" Linux as a drop-in Windows replacement isn't a good strategy. Getting someone to install Ubuntu/Fedora/openSUSE isn't a victory for the community if his hardware isn't compatible and things don't work right. It would be better to tell him that he should think about purchasing a Linux-compatible computer in the future and perhaps directing him to a list of compatible hardware.
wazoox 14y ago
Something's wrong with your system. I use Slackware, I have a dual screen setup and no xorg.conf, all was configured with the catalyst panel. My colleague has some Acer Laptop running Ubuntu, and he sometimes connects an external 19" screen he has on his desktop, and he certainly hasn't any xorg.conf (and that's fortunate because he's utterly non-technical).
- daeken 14y ago
  There's nothing wrong with my system. Neither you nor your colleague have Nvidia Optimus systems, which is why you're not having any issues. My problems are definitely not the norm, but the "Xorg.conf isn't used anymore" meme needs to die; there are still real problems to be addressed. Unless we identify them and deal with them, they'll still be there.

aidenn0 14y ago

I dropped Ubuntu since after weeks of research and discussion, etc the only way I could get it to output acceptable screen resolution on my monitor was to hand enter a MODELINE. a !@#$@#$%@#$ Modeline; I couldn't remember the last time I typed in a modeline before this.

simcop2387 14y ago
What kind of monitor? I'm curious to know to avoid them when I want one that doesn't need that kind of thing. The only times recently I've had to do that is for two specific cases, an arcade monitor that was built before EDID was a pipe dream, and a TV that likes to report that it has a native resolution of 320x240. Both of which would have to be worked around on any platform so I don't find it a problem.
- aidenn0 14y ago
  It is a Sun branded monitor with really broke-ass EDID, and I was using it just fine before having manually (but with a GUI) set the resolution and refresh rate.

sciurus 14y ago

Is there public information on the user studies Canonical has conducted on Unity or other desktop environments? It seems like that information would be very useful to other free software projects. All I can find are reports on empathy and rhythmbox. http://design.canonical.com/the-research/ http://design.canonical.com/the-research/

ekianjo 14y ago
I do not think that Canonical would share such data. That kind of research costs money, and they want to keep it to their advantage, most probably. You don't see Microsoft or Google release their user studies results either. Hardly surprising.
jamesgeck0 14y ago
The last published usability report on Unity seems to be from April 2011. http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usabilit...

josteink 14y ago

1. As someone else noted, literally years since you ever had to touch config file by hand. Use Ubuntu, you'll love it. Sure. But that wont cure a fundamental problem with the X11/Xorg infrastructure. You cannot quickly and switch desktop orientation, resolution and layout (not to mention drivers) seamlessly like on Windows without killing your entire X-session. Killing your entire session. Jeez. At the root of this problem is an architecture which is lagging on what Microsoft could deliver in Windows 98. You cannot make Windows and reboot-jokes while you have this Achilles-heel dragging your video subsystem. You seriously cannot. And no new version of Ubuntu can overcome this underlying issue, no matter how much fluff and candy they add elsewhere, as long as they rely on the ancient relic that is X11. As far as I know, when Google decided to make Android and ChromeOS (a complete failure as far as any metric goes, but still worth mentioning) they decided: 1. to base it on Linux, because that makes sense and 2. not to base it on X11 because they wanted it to be flexible and they wanted their users not be limited by what architects could think of in the 1984. For end-user Linux to ever become user-friendly Xorg needs a complete architectural overhaul. I cannot see anyone arguing this. And even if seemingly everyone agrees on this, nobody is pushing forward for it to happen. Make of that what you like.

krunaldo 14y ago
uh? You can change resolutions on the fly and orientation on the fly. This have been available for ages via xrandr and other things. Via API-calls or through the xrandr cli utility. The only thing that is really ugly in X11 is the protocol, but so is win32 api :)
jamesgeck0 14y ago
> You cannot quickly and switch desktop orientation, resolution and layout (not to mention drivers) seamlessly like on Windows without killing your entire X-session. On my Ubuntu system, I can change orientation, resolution, and layout from a little control panel without restarting the session. I have no idea if Xorg restarts; the superficial behavior is almost identical to Windows. From the user's point of view, it doesn't seem to matter. > For end-user Linux to ever become user-friendly Xorg needs a complete architectural overhaul. Every mainstream desktop environment seems to have handled the major aspects of display usability just fine. The only serious issues I've encountered have been one-off bugs related to drivers. > I cannot see anyone arguing this. Everyone agrees X is a mess. But why must we continue to use X and not Wayland?