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Actually the mind control aspect of the Foundation series was my least favorite part. I know it was a big part of the storyline but I would’ve preferred a heavi

Actually the mind control aspect of the Foundation series was my least favorite part. I know it was a big part of the storyline but I would’ve preferred a heavier emphasis on “psychohistory” and chaos theory. The telepathic element, especially in books 4 and 5 was left unexplained. The only thing that would make sense to me is if anyone with mind control powers was actually a robot.

thriftwy 2y ago
Asimov actually invented the Black Swan Event half a century before Taleb. Mind control was such an event that psychohistory could not account for. Sometimes things just happen and spoil our plans.
- therobots927 2y ago
  That’s a fair point. I just wish there was a clear cause and effect behind the black swan event. Part of what makes the big short so interesting to me is seeing exactly how the black swan event transpired in the 2008 housing crisis.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    I don't think that 2008 housing crisis had any serious black swans around it, instead of bad planning caused by chasing the dollar. The point of a black swan that there doesn't have to be a cause.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > The point of a black swan that there doesn't have to be a cause. That's the first I've heard that suggested. It's a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight; based on a Latin expression which presumed that black swans did not exist which stopped being used that way in 1697 when people found actual black swans.
    - pjlegato 2y ago
      The point isn't that black swans don't have causes. The point is that nobody is expecting those particular causes at all when the event happens, due to prior assumptions being wrong.
  - WorldMaker 2y ago
    Asimov did eventually explore some of the ideas of the hidden causes/effects of that Black Swan Crisis in deep sequels and things you don't expect to be sequels ("The End of Eternity" for example). The answers basically boil down to "meddling from Robots and Aliens" both groups of whom the Empire worked to destroy and/or claimed/believed didn't exist (and so Hari Seldon was entirely blind to them as actors in galactic politics). Though certainly at the time of writing Second Foundation he had no idea what caused it, was writing by the seat of his pants, and was just looking for a MacGuffin that would confuse everything he'd built in the first Foundation novel.
    - therobots927 2y ago
      Yeah I think because the series was written so far apart, there were sacrifices made in the plot integrity (imo). I’m a big fan of Asimov mainly because of the concepts he explored but I would never compare the foundation series to the lord of the rings for example, which had a much more well thought out universe.
      - WorldMaker 2y ago
        Sure, but to be fair, strong cohesive worldbuilding was never the goal with Foundation. It was a gedankenexperiment to take an impossible but scientifically plausible sounding technology (psychohistory) and find lots of ways to break it and/or explain it. If you were actually looking for Asimov at his most "Lord of the Rings" I'd actually suggest probably "The Gods Themselves". There the worldbuilding was far more central and important to the narrative.
        therobots927 2y ago
        Thank you very much for the recommendation, I’ll check it out. That makes sense that he was trying to find a way to break it, I just think chaos theory would break it very well on its own. It’s not possible to forecast weather accurately past what, two weeks? And the second foundation was going to predict the evolution of a million-planet galactic population 1000 years into the future? You don’t need mind control to poke a hole in that, lol.
prewett 2y ago
Apparently Asimov linked the robots into Foundation some decades afterwards, so maybe he agreed with you. (I've not read past the original trilogy, so can't say for sure.)
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  He did! Foundation and Earth.
  - therobots927 2y ago
    They were incorporated but there seemed to be a clear separation between Gaia (the planet where everyone had telepathy and they basically stored data inside of the rocks/earth’s core) and the robots. Maybe that was a misunderstanding on my part, and Gaia was a world of robots. Which would also imply that the Mule was a robot. That being said it would also imply many of the members of the second foundation were also robots. I don’t know if this is the right interpretation.
    - dbspin 2y ago
      Major Spoilers Unmirror text to read. Wɘ ʇinb oυt in tʜɘ ʇinɒl Azimov volυmɘ tʜɒt tʜɘ Mυlɘ wɒƨ ɒ Әɒiɒn, tʜoυϱʜ not ɒ ɿodot. Әɒiɒ wɒƨ ʇoυnbɘb dγ Я. Ⴇɒnɘɘl Olivɒw. Iʇ I ɿɘɔɒll it wɒƨ ɒ ƨibɘ dɘt iʇ tʜɘ ƨɘɔonb ʇoυnbɒtion bibn't ƨɒvɘ ʜυmɒnitγ.
      - therobots927 2y ago
        How can I unmirror this?
        oasisaimlessly 2y ago
        With great difficulty. > We find out in the final Asimov volume that the Mule was a Gaian, though not a robot. Gaia was founded by R. Daneel Olivaw. If I recall it was a side bet if the second foundation didn't save humanity. Do kids these days not know about rot13?

thriftwy 2y ago

Asimov actually invented the Black Swan Event half a century before Taleb. Mind control was such an event that psychohistory could not account for. Sometimes things just happen and spoil our plans.

therobots927 2y ago
That’s a fair point. I just wish there was a clear cause and effect behind the black swan event. Part of what makes the big short so interesting to me is seeing exactly how the black swan event transpired in the 2008 housing crisis.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  I don't think that 2008 housing crisis had any serious black swans around it, instead of bad planning caused by chasing the dollar. The point of a black swan that there doesn't have to be a cause.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > The point of a black swan that there doesn't have to be a cause. That's the first I've heard that suggested. It's a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight; based on a Latin expression which presumed that black swans did not exist which stopped being used that way in 1697 when people found actual black swans.
  - pjlegato 2y ago
    The point isn't that black swans don't have causes. The point is that nobody is expecting those particular causes at all when the event happens, due to prior assumptions being wrong.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  Asimov did eventually explore some of the ideas of the hidden causes/effects of that Black Swan Crisis in deep sequels and things you don't expect to be sequels ("The End of Eternity" for example). The answers basically boil down to "meddling from Robots and Aliens" both groups of whom the Empire worked to destroy and/or claimed/believed didn't exist (and so Hari Seldon was entirely blind to them as actors in galactic politics). Though certainly at the time of writing Second Foundation he had no idea what caused it, was writing by the seat of his pants, and was just looking for a MacGuffin that would confuse everything he'd built in the first Foundation novel.
  - therobots927 2y ago
    Yeah I think because the series was written so far apart, there were sacrifices made in the plot integrity (imo). I’m a big fan of Asimov mainly because of the concepts he explored but I would never compare the foundation series to the lord of the rings for example, which had a much more well thought out universe.
    - WorldMaker 2y ago
      Sure, but to be fair, strong cohesive worldbuilding was never the goal with Foundation. It was a gedankenexperiment to take an impossible but scientifically plausible sounding technology (psychohistory) and find lots of ways to break it and/or explain it. If you were actually looking for Asimov at his most "Lord of the Rings" I'd actually suggest probably "The Gods Themselves". There the worldbuilding was far more central and important to the narrative.
      - therobots927 2y ago
        Thank you very much for the recommendation, I’ll check it out. That makes sense that he was trying to find a way to break it, I just think chaos theory would break it very well on its own. It’s not possible to forecast weather accurately past what, two weeks? And the second foundation was going to predict the evolution of a million-planet galactic population 1000 years into the future? You don’t need mind control to poke a hole in that, lol.

prewett 2y ago

Apparently Asimov linked the robots into Foundation some decades afterwards, so maybe he agreed with you. (I've not read past the original trilogy, so can't say for sure.)

robertlagrant 2y ago
He did! Foundation and Earth.
- therobots927 2y ago
  They were incorporated but there seemed to be a clear separation between Gaia (the planet where everyone had telepathy and they basically stored data inside of the rocks/earth’s core) and the robots. Maybe that was a misunderstanding on my part, and Gaia was a world of robots. Which would also imply that the Mule was a robot. That being said it would also imply many of the members of the second foundation were also robots. I don’t know if this is the right interpretation.
  - dbspin 2y ago
    Major Spoilers Unmirror text to read. Wɘ ʇinb oυt in tʜɘ ʇinɒl Azimov volυmɘ tʜɒt tʜɘ Mυlɘ wɒƨ ɒ Әɒiɒn, tʜoυϱʜ not ɒ ɿodot. Әɒiɒ wɒƨ ʇoυnbɘb dγ Я. Ⴇɒnɘɘl Olivɒw. Iʇ I ɿɘɔɒll it wɒƨ ɒ ƨibɘ dɘt iʇ tʜɘ ƨɘɔonb ʇoυnbɒtion bibn't ƨɒvɘ ʜυmɒnitγ.
    - therobots927 2y ago
      How can I unmirror this?
      - oasisaimlessly 2y ago
        With great difficulty. > We find out in the final Asimov volume that the Mule was a Gaian, though not a robot. Gaia was founded by R. Daneel Olivaw. If I recall it was a side bet if the second foundation didn't save humanity. Do kids these days not know about rot13?