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I am confident that I will not be one of "web devs who decry AI because I'm out of work" [1], but even if I were, it doesn't actually change anything about what

I am confident that I will not be one of "web devs who decry AI because I'm out of work" [1], but even if I were, it doesn't actually change anything about what I said, even if you could prove some kind of hypocrisy. I was laid off from three jobs last year (not for AI replacement), so I can empathize how much it sucks to lose your job, but that doesn't mean we just halt progress, and even if I were pissed off that ChatGPT replaced me, it wouldn't really change anything I said. > Notto mention, all of the creative and entertainment industry jobs that will be destroyed permanently. Sorry, citation needed. Everyone just keeps asserting it like I can just take it as an axiom, and I don't buy it. AI is a tool, it will be treated as a tool, if a tool can do something better than a person then that tool should be used, and if it's worse than a person, then they probably won't be replaced. If ChatGPT were to start writing code that didn't suck and as a result started replacing lower-level developers and eventually higher-level developers, that would of course suck, but those developers would probably just learn how to use the AI tools and move on with the trend, at least eventually. People have been saying this crap my entire life (and probably way before it), and I just don't accept the axiom. [1] I don't do web dev, but you can replace it with "backend data processing crap dev".

JohnFen 2y ago
> those developers would probably just learn how to use the AI tools and move on with the trend, at least eventually. Many certainly will. But that sort of job would be very different from what being a dev has entailed when they chose the career. For many devs, the part of programming that they enjoy the most is precisely the part that people are talking about automating away. That means that there would be devs who find themselves trapped in a job that they now hate.
- tombert 2y ago
  Sample size of one, but I've found AI to be quite good at automating away the parts of engineering that I really dislike. Stuff like basic scaffolding and long repetitive if/elseif/else chains are things that I have zero fun doing, or looking at long debug logs from build systems makes my life considerably less irritating. It's not perfect at it, but it's also generally useful to paste a chunk of code I wrote years ago and telling me more or less what it does (because I forgot). Obviously part of this is sort of predicated on the fact that it's still pretty bad at the fun stuff right now, and if it gets better at it then maybe I'll be right now, but in its current state I feel like it's made my life better.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    > I've found AI to be quite good at automating away the parts of engineering that I really dislike That doesn't surprise me. Different people enjoy different aspects of development, so YMMV. > Stuff like basic scaffolding and long repetitive if/elseif/else chains are things that I have zero fun doing I've seen other devs say similar things, and I agree that stuff sucks. But I only rarely have to do that sort of thing at all, so when I do, it's not a great burden. (That said, I actually do know at least one dev who enjoys that kind of thing.) But it makes me wonder: am I an outlier here? Do others do this stuff often?
    - tombert 2y ago
      It happens less as I’ve gotten into more senior roles at my jobs, but I’m constantly starting new personal protects and I find that a lot of the annoying grunt work happens in the first few days of the project, which is the part I always dread. Being able to quickly ask ChatGPT for a quick couple stanzas of code for me to get started makes things more fun. Also, I do need to look at server logs all the damn time and I never have fun doing it, especially for some of the more arcane weird stuff (getting an LTO6 drive to work on NixOS was especially irritating). A lot of the less-frequently-used services will often have logs that are really hard to parse. ChatGPT would be worth the price of admission based solely on that. For that matter, build files are pretty much universally irritating to me. Being able to quickly get some personalized Maven or Gradle information really quick has saved me considerable time and effort. There’s plenty of more bureaucratic parts of being a software engineer that it helps me with; I have gotten it to write letters of recommendation for me since those are fairly utilitarian at the end of the day, or to help me format slides in Beamer. I don’t know; again for me it’s been extraordinarily helpful and made software engineering a lot more enjoyable. If I felt like my job were actually at risk from it in the near it’s possible I would have a worse opinion of it.
      - JohnFen 2y ago
        Fair enough! > I don’t know; again for me it’s been extraordinarily helpful and made software engineering a lot more enjoyable I found it to be more of an impediment than help, in that I spent at least as much time and effort when using LLMs as assistants than not, and it makes the software engineering much less pleasant for me. Different strokes and all that. As with all tools, what is great for one person can be terrible for another.
- joquarky 2y ago
  > But that sort of job would be very different from what being a dev has entailed when they chose the career. I've been through that. I got into web dev when it was just HTML and maybe some JS (CSS didn't exist) and my interview was a half hour where I only had to demonstrate that I could use vi and create a C program that was basically just getenv("QUERY_STRING"). I miss the days of writing vanilla JS without a ton of dependencies. I'm not a fan of the "framework of the month" nature of JS, and all the complex toolchains these days certainly has made the job less "fun", but the world isn't going to stop for me. The only thing that doesn't change is incessant change.
freitzkriesler2 2y ago
You've written a lot but only touched on the smallest part that they're trying to automate: > If ChatGPT were to start writing code that didn't suck and as a result started replacing lower-level developers and eventually higher-level developers, that would of course suck, YES this is the future that they want and are pushing towards. AI will eventually write code and make entertainment that will surpass what coders can do. To think this isn't coming is naive. First it's scaffolding and simple stuff. Next it's the harder engineering tasks you enjoy the most. This is the future that is coming and the reason people have been saying this your entire life is because they're right. It's coming and it's coming NOW. Don't believe me? Read up on what happened to graphic designers in China. https://restofworld.org/2023/ai-china-video-game-layoffs-illustrators/ https://restofworld.org/2023/ai-china-video-game-layoffs-ill... Next up: web devs
- tombert 2y ago
  YOu didn't really read the rest of what I wrote. It would suck but then I'd figure out how to use the AI tools. Every job that has ever existed requires people to adapt.
  - freitzkriesler2 2y ago
    I did and rather bluntly, your adaptation will be either accepting a new job doing something different or taking far less money to no money for your coding skills to continue doing what you're doing. In short, coders are the modern day buggy whip manufacturers who are about to get BTFO by the up and coming AI/automobile. It's coming and your nativite hurts.

JohnFen 2y ago

> those developers would probably just learn how to use the AI tools and move on with the trend, at least eventually. Many certainly will. But that sort of job would be very different from what being a dev has entailed when they chose the career. For many devs, the part of programming that they enjoy the most is precisely the part that people are talking about automating away. That means that there would be devs who find themselves trapped in a job that they now hate.

tombert 2y ago
Sample size of one, but I've found AI to be quite good at automating away the parts of engineering that I really dislike. Stuff like basic scaffolding and long repetitive if/elseif/else chains are things that I have zero fun doing, or looking at long debug logs from build systems makes my life considerably less irritating. It's not perfect at it, but it's also generally useful to paste a chunk of code I wrote years ago and telling me more or less what it does (because I forgot). Obviously part of this is sort of predicated on the fact that it's still pretty bad at the fun stuff right now, and if it gets better at it then maybe I'll be right now, but in its current state I feel like it's made my life better.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > I've found AI to be quite good at automating away the parts of engineering that I really dislike That doesn't surprise me. Different people enjoy different aspects of development, so YMMV. > Stuff like basic scaffolding and long repetitive if/elseif/else chains are things that I have zero fun doing I've seen other devs say similar things, and I agree that stuff sucks. But I only rarely have to do that sort of thing at all, so when I do, it's not a great burden. (That said, I actually do know at least one dev who enjoys that kind of thing.) But it makes me wonder: am I an outlier here? Do others do this stuff often?
  - tombert 2y ago
    It happens less as I’ve gotten into more senior roles at my jobs, but I’m constantly starting new personal protects and I find that a lot of the annoying grunt work happens in the first few days of the project, which is the part I always dread. Being able to quickly ask ChatGPT for a quick couple stanzas of code for me to get started makes things more fun. Also, I do need to look at server logs all the damn time and I never have fun doing it, especially for some of the more arcane weird stuff (getting an LTO6 drive to work on NixOS was especially irritating). A lot of the less-frequently-used services will often have logs that are really hard to parse. ChatGPT would be worth the price of admission based solely on that. For that matter, build files are pretty much universally irritating to me. Being able to quickly get some personalized Maven or Gradle information really quick has saved me considerable time and effort. There’s plenty of more bureaucratic parts of being a software engineer that it helps me with; I have gotten it to write letters of recommendation for me since those are fairly utilitarian at the end of the day, or to help me format slides in Beamer. I don’t know; again for me it’s been extraordinarily helpful and made software engineering a lot more enjoyable. If I felt like my job were actually at risk from it in the near it’s possible I would have a worse opinion of it.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      Fair enough! > I don’t know; again for me it’s been extraordinarily helpful and made software engineering a lot more enjoyable I found it to be more of an impediment than help, in that I spent at least as much time and effort when using LLMs as assistants than not, and it makes the software engineering much less pleasant for me. Different strokes and all that. As with all tools, what is great for one person can be terrible for another.
joquarky 2y ago
> But that sort of job would be very different from what being a dev has entailed when they chose the career. I've been through that. I got into web dev when it was just HTML and maybe some JS (CSS didn't exist) and my interview was a half hour where I only had to demonstrate that I could use vi and create a C program that was basically just getenv("QUERY_STRING"). I miss the days of writing vanilla JS without a ton of dependencies. I'm not a fan of the "framework of the month" nature of JS, and all the complex toolchains these days certainly has made the job less "fun", but the world isn't going to stop for me. The only thing that doesn't change is incessant change.

freitzkriesler2 2y ago

You've written a lot but only touched on the smallest part that they're trying to automate: > If ChatGPT were to start writing code that didn't suck and as a result started replacing lower-level developers and eventually higher-level developers, that would of course suck, YES this is the future that they want and are pushing towards. AI will eventually write code and make entertainment that will surpass what coders can do. To think this isn't coming is naive. First it's scaffolding and simple stuff. Next it's the harder engineering tasks you enjoy the most. This is the future that is coming and the reason people have been saying this your entire life is because they're right. It's coming and it's coming NOW. Don't believe me? Read up on what happened to graphic designers in China. https://restofworld.org/2023/ai-china-video-game-layoffs-illustrators/ https://restofworld.org/2023/ai-china-video-game-layoffs-ill... Next up: web devs

tombert 2y ago
YOu didn't really read the rest of what I wrote. It would suck but then I'd figure out how to use the AI tools. Every job that has ever existed requires people to adapt.
- freitzkriesler2 2y ago
  I did and rather bluntly, your adaptation will be either accepting a new job doing something different or taking far less money to no money for your coding skills to continue doing what you're doing. In short, coders are the modern day buggy whip manufacturers who are about to get BTFO by the up and coming AI/automobile. It's coming and your nativite hurts.