4 ms·

Germany gets informal EU go-ahead to support gas-fired power, sources say

16 points by mpweiher 2y ago

ggm 2y ago
As a transitional fuel source, gas turbines seem like a good choice. I still find their decision to decommission nuclear odd but having done so and with no appetite to reverse a gas fall back works fine. Easy to deploy, well understood tech and the least offensive of the carbon intense electricity sources. They can sit on standby for ages and be up to load inside the window battery stacks would drain on. That's all you need and the battery can arbitrage and do FCAS outside of those times.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Germany has made many strategic errors in many domains over the last 20 years because of political and ideological priorities over pragmatism and long term thinking. But all in all, at this point gas turbines make some sense, especially if they allow to speed up the phasing out of coal power, which is still 25+% of electricity in Germany.
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    We burn a lot of the gas that comes out of the ground off at the well. Getting some energy out of that would be a net positive.
  - usrnm 2y ago
    > because of political and ideological priorities over pragmatism FWIW, depending on cheap Russian gas was very pragmatical and it worked well for the economy.
    - kvgr 2y ago
      But not very strategic.
      - oytis 2y ago
        It wasn't, but also Germany's strategic options are limited. US, being its strategic ally, is also its economic rival, and will not hesitate using its advantage of having own energy source. Self-sufficiency solely on renewables is also not an option, at least short and middle term.
        mpweiher 2y ago
        Germany had a reliable energy source with many sources of fuel. And then turned it off for no good reason at all. (Lots of bad reasons).
        kvgr 2y ago
        They could start fracking... now their industry is going down, energy is going up and they cant even see US.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Leaving nuclear energy aside, European countries have massive reserves of shale gas. They decided not to exploit them and to be dependent on foreign powers instead. We read about Russia but now Germany imports from the US (shale gas!) and Qatar. The US have won the jackpot with the war in Ukraine: split Russia and Germany, and reaps the dollars as well.
    - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
      Yep... But I still don't understand how the people (and opposition politicians, businesses, etc.) don't get mad with the government about the nordstream issue.... the destruction caused a lot of damage to the german economy, ecologically it was a huge disaster, and somehow there is no blame game, no consequences, no nothing... some fingerpointing, some "we don't know", some "yeah maybe it was..", and quiet. It's like a local kebab store burned down, "we don't know exactly what happened, but we won't use too many resources to find out, because it's not worth it"... except that it's literally billions of damage in this case, and 'noone cares'.
      - immibis 2y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if ALL German politicians were getting kickbacks for Russian gas. All politicians in power are very corrupt.
      - kvgr 2y ago
        Germans have very weird relationship with russia. That we, east of germany and west of russia dont quite understand. They always think, that russia will be better this time. Quite naive. And dont want to anger it.
        eigenket 2y ago
        My feeling is that Germans just don't care about Eastern Europe somehow. Germans are generally comfortable knowing that the money they spend on Russian hydrocarbons will be used to attack and destabilise their "allies" to their East. As long as it doesn't directly impact them they don't care.
      - usrnm 2y ago
        And what if it turns out that Germany is currently sending billions of euro to the country that blew it up? I don't think anyone in the government wants to answer this question
- CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
  It doesn't even have to be a transitional fuel if we have cheap efuels.
  - morsch 2y ago
    Which is about as realistic as the idea of fueling these new gas power plants with (green) hydrogen.
- oytis 2y ago
  The only problem with gas is that Germany does not have its own gas. After Russian supply stopped it has to buy it from Azerbaijan, which not only has its own trail of human and civil rights abuse as well as ongoing military aggression, but also is plausibly suspected in reselling the same Russian gas.
  - Moldoteck 2y ago
    why they don't buy from norway?
    - forloni 2y ago
      A simple fast food meal in Norway costs $14. More expensive there..
    - morsch 2y ago
      Germany got about 43% of its natgas from Norway in 2023. And 0% from Azerbaijan, as far as I can tell, though other EU countries did -- very little, although there may be plans for this to increase in the future. https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE/2024/20240104_Gasversorgung2023.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_gasversorgung/_svg/Gasimporte/Gasimporte.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_g... https://www.bruegel.org/dataset/european-natural-gas-imports https://www.bruegel.org/dataset/european-natural-gas-imports
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
rasz 2y ago
Still dreaming about restarting NordStream ...
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  I still wonder, how come noone cares who did it... or why the ones that do, don't get mad at the government. It was billions of damage, a huge ecological disaster, and everyone acts as if nothing has happened... there should be daily questioning of the politicians (by the journalists, etc.) about who did what, and what the reaction will be.
  - eigenket 2y ago
    I think no one cares because basing your energy policy on buying gas from Russia is such an obviously stupid idea that no one wants to bring it up. Russia is not your ally, Russia isn't even a reliable neutral party. Russia is explicitly the enemy of Europe and when Germans get that into their heads things will be a lot simpler.
    - forloni 2y ago
      Angela Merkel is more pragmatic than that.
      - eigenket 2y ago
        She failed to come up with a workable energy policy and made Germany dependent on the thugs in Moscow as a result.
    - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
      I mean... considering the rise of AfD, people do care. Would you really not care if someone burned your car?
      - eigenket 2y ago
        I don't think many people are voting for AfD because of gas pipes. Nordstream isn't a case of someone burning down the German people's car. Its more like Russia persuaded the German people to pay for the chains and manacles which kept Germany captive. Sure you paid for them, but they were still your chains. Its worth pointing out that Nordstream 2 never delivered any gas, and Nordstream 1 stopped delivering gas a year before the destruction, so its not like they were actually helping Germany's energy situation at all.
kvgr 2y ago
What a waste of resources. The nuclear plants were up and running. Could be running for decated with good maintanance. The most of the costs were already paid. And now: Germany won the European Union's informal approval to pay billions of euros to gas powered plants to be able to stabilise the grid when unsteady renewable energy supplies fall short, people familiar with the negotiations told Reuters on Friday. People in my country are upset when gas and coal barons get rich. But we are making them rich by our wrong decisions.
- jorvi 2y ago
  Gas turbines and nuclear do not fulfill the same role. Nuclear is base load, gas is peak load. You can’t stabilize a grid with base load because you want to run base load plants at maximum capacity. Whereas peaker plants are quickly spun up and down to match up supply with demand. To be clear, shutting down those nuclear plants is a bone-headed decision fueled by a false idea of greenness, but it has little to do with gas turbines. Nuclear replaces coal or hydro.
  - red_trumpet 2y ago
    > Nuclear replaces coal or hydro. There's not much hydro where I'm wrong, so I might be mistaken with this. But I always thought hydro was also pretty flexible, so it could serve as peak load? Like, you can even pump water up a dam if you have a surplus of electricity.
    - kvgr 2y ago
      I am not sure about the speed, but the capacity is issue. It takes a lot of land to build a lot of hydro, damages ecosystems.
    - riffraff 2y ago
      > Like, you can even pump water up a dam if you have a surplus of electricity. only if you have two places where the water is stored, but pumped hydro is not the most common source of hydroelectric power in Europe.
  - 2y ago
morsch 2y ago
Some numerical context: current installed capacity 34.8 GW (gas), about 39 GW (coal), 170 GW (solar and wind). Obviously the installed capacity for renewables is only half of the story, the output depends both on the respective input and on the capacity of the grid to accept electricity. And since the gas power plants serve as peaker plants even now, they're running only at 15% load. https://gas.info/gas-im-energiemix/strom-aus-gas/versorgungssicherheit-strom/gas-kraftwerke https://gas.info/gas-im-energiemix/strom-aus-gas/versorgungs... https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2024/20240105_EEGZubau.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...
JanSt 2y ago
Decades of fear spread by the Greens (Bündnis 90/Die Grünen) and the media have made any argument in favor of nuclear power a waste of time in Germany. It's really sad that the party which stands for climate protection and the environment is the main culprit for shutting down nuclear power in Germany, thereby keeping coal power running for now.
- guardian5x 2y ago
  Well, we still don't even have a solution for nuclear waste. It's not like nuclear has no problems.
  - JanSt 2y ago
    Of course there are solutions. Look at Finland. Also, how many nuclear waste death do we have per year? How much do we pay for it's current storage? How does it change the climate? How much nuclear waste is there even? There is no nuclear waste problem. It's FUD.
    - Y-bar 2y ago
      Finland's Posiva long-term disposal plant are still doing trial runs after 40 years of work: https://www.posiva.fi/en/index/news/pressreleasesstockexchangereleases/2024/undergroundfinaldisposalfacilitiesachievereadinessfortrialrunoffinaldisposal.html https://www.posiva.fi/en/index/news/pressreleasesstockexchan...
  - troupo 2y ago
    > Well, we still don't even have a solution for nuclear waste. We do. The requirement for hugely complex disposal sites is mostly a political one. There's very little long-term hazardous waste that we need to take care of, and we already know how to store it for a very long time. Only 0.2% of all waste is long term highly radioactive: https://international.andra.fr/sites/international/files/2020-03/Andra-MAJ_Essentiels_2020_UK.pdf https://international.andra.fr/sites/international/files/202...
- kvgr 2y ago
HlessClaudesman 2y ago
Where is the gas comming from?
dsq 2y ago
Nuclear can be a win-win. Build enough to reach peak use, and then use the extra capacity during low use hours for producing hydrogen for clean vehicle fuel. All at near zero CO2 emission.

16 points by mpweiher 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

As a transitional fuel source, gas turbines seem like a good choice. I still find their decision to decommission nuclear odd but having done so and with no appetite to reverse a gas fall back works fine. Easy to deploy, well understood tech and the least offensive of the carbon intense electricity sources. They can sit on standby for ages and be up to load inside the window battery stacks would drain on. That's all you need and the battery can arbitrage and do FCAS outside of those times.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Germany has made many strategic errors in many domains over the last 20 years because of political and ideological priorities over pragmatism and long term thinking. But all in all, at this point gas turbines make some sense, especially if they allow to speed up the phasing out of coal power, which is still 25+% of electricity in Germany.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  We burn a lot of the gas that comes out of the ground off at the well. Getting some energy out of that would be a net positive.
- usrnm 2y ago
  > because of political and ideological priorities over pragmatism FWIW, depending on cheap Russian gas was very pragmatical and it worked well for the economy.
  - kvgr 2y ago
    But not very strategic.
    - oytis 2y ago
      It wasn't, but also Germany's strategic options are limited. US, being its strategic ally, is also its economic rival, and will not hesitate using its advantage of having own energy source. Self-sufficiency solely on renewables is also not an option, at least short and middle term.
      - mpweiher 2y ago
        Germany had a reliable energy source with many sources of fuel. And then turned it off for no good reason at all. (Lots of bad reasons).
      - kvgr 2y ago
        They could start fracking... now their industry is going down, energy is going up and they cant even see US.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Leaving nuclear energy aside, European countries have massive reserves of shale gas. They decided not to exploit them and to be dependent on foreign powers instead. We read about Russia but now Germany imports from the US (shale gas!) and Qatar. The US have won the jackpot with the war in Ukraine: split Russia and Germany, and reaps the dollars as well.
  - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    Yep... But I still don't understand how the people (and opposition politicians, businesses, etc.) don't get mad with the government about the nordstream issue.... the destruction caused a lot of damage to the german economy, ecologically it was a huge disaster, and somehow there is no blame game, no consequences, no nothing... some fingerpointing, some "we don't know", some "yeah maybe it was..", and quiet. It's like a local kebab store burned down, "we don't know exactly what happened, but we won't use too many resources to find out, because it's not worth it"... except that it's literally billions of damage in this case, and 'noone cares'.
    - immibis 2y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if ALL German politicians were getting kickbacks for Russian gas. All politicians in power are very corrupt.
    - kvgr 2y ago
      Germans have very weird relationship with russia. That we, east of germany and west of russia dont quite understand. They always think, that russia will be better this time. Quite naive. And dont want to anger it.
      - eigenket 2y ago
        My feeling is that Germans just don't care about Eastern Europe somehow. Germans are generally comfortable knowing that the money they spend on Russian hydrocarbons will be used to attack and destabilise their "allies" to their East. As long as it doesn't directly impact them they don't care.
    - usrnm 2y ago
      And what if it turns out that Germany is currently sending billions of euro to the country that blew it up? I don't think anyone in the government wants to answer this question
CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
It doesn't even have to be a transitional fuel if we have cheap efuels.
- morsch 2y ago
  Which is about as realistic as the idea of fueling these new gas power plants with (green) hydrogen.
oytis 2y ago
The only problem with gas is that Germany does not have its own gas. After Russian supply stopped it has to buy it from Azerbaijan, which not only has its own trail of human and civil rights abuse as well as ongoing military aggression, but also is plausibly suspected in reselling the same Russian gas.
- Moldoteck 2y ago
  why they don't buy from norway?
  - forloni 2y ago
    A simple fast food meal in Norway costs $14. More expensive there..
  - morsch 2y ago
    Germany got about 43% of its natgas from Norway in 2023. And 0% from Azerbaijan, as far as I can tell, though other EU countries did -- very little, although there may be plans for this to increase in the future. https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE/2024/20240104_Gasversorgung2023.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung... https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_gasversorgung/_svg/Gasimporte/Gasimporte.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_g... https://www.bruegel.org/dataset/european-natural-gas-imports https://www.bruegel.org/dataset/european-natural-gas-imports

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

rasz 2y ago

Still dreaming about restarting NordStream ...

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
I still wonder, how come noone cares who did it... or why the ones that do, don't get mad at the government. It was billions of damage, a huge ecological disaster, and everyone acts as if nothing has happened... there should be daily questioning of the politicians (by the journalists, etc.) about who did what, and what the reaction will be.
- eigenket 2y ago
  I think no one cares because basing your energy policy on buying gas from Russia is such an obviously stupid idea that no one wants to bring it up. Russia is not your ally, Russia isn't even a reliable neutral party. Russia is explicitly the enemy of Europe and when Germans get that into their heads things will be a lot simpler.
  - forloni 2y ago
    Angela Merkel is more pragmatic than that.
    - eigenket 2y ago
      She failed to come up with a workable energy policy and made Germany dependent on the thugs in Moscow as a result.
  - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    I mean... considering the rise of AfD, people do care. Would you really not care if someone burned your car?
    - eigenket 2y ago
      I don't think many people are voting for AfD because of gas pipes. Nordstream isn't a case of someone burning down the German people's car. Its more like Russia persuaded the German people to pay for the chains and manacles which kept Germany captive. Sure you paid for them, but they were still your chains. Its worth pointing out that Nordstream 2 never delivered any gas, and Nordstream 1 stopped delivering gas a year before the destruction, so its not like they were actually helping Germany's energy situation at all.

kvgr 2y ago

What a waste of resources. The nuclear plants were up and running. Could be running for decated with good maintanance. The most of the costs were already paid. And now: Germany won the European Union's informal approval to pay billions of euros to gas powered plants to be able to stabilise the grid when unsteady renewable energy supplies fall short, people familiar with the negotiations told Reuters on Friday. People in my country are upset when gas and coal barons get rich. But we are making them rich by our wrong decisions.

jorvi 2y ago
Gas turbines and nuclear do not fulfill the same role. Nuclear is base load, gas is peak load. You can’t stabilize a grid with base load because you want to run base load plants at maximum capacity. Whereas peaker plants are quickly spun up and down to match up supply with demand. To be clear, shutting down those nuclear plants is a bone-headed decision fueled by a false idea of greenness, but it has little to do with gas turbines. Nuclear replaces coal or hydro.
- red_trumpet 2y ago
  > Nuclear replaces coal or hydro. There's not much hydro where I'm wrong, so I might be mistaken with this. But I always thought hydro was also pretty flexible, so it could serve as peak load? Like, you can even pump water up a dam if you have a surplus of electricity.
  - kvgr 2y ago
    I am not sure about the speed, but the capacity is issue. It takes a lot of land to build a lot of hydro, damages ecosystems.
  - riffraff 2y ago
    > Like, you can even pump water up a dam if you have a surplus of electricity. only if you have two places where the water is stored, but pumped hydro is not the most common source of hydroelectric power in Europe.
- 2y ago

morsch 2y ago

Some numerical context: current installed capacity 34.8 GW (gas), about 39 GW (coal), 170 GW (solar and wind). Obviously the installed capacity for renewables is only half of the story, the output depends both on the respective input and on the capacity of the grid to accept electricity. And since the gas power plants serve as peaker plants even now, they're running only at 15% load. https://gas.info/gas-im-energiemix/strom-aus-gas/versorgungssicherheit-strom/gas-kraftwerke https://gas.info/gas-im-energiemix/strom-aus-gas/versorgungs... https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/EN/2024/20240105_EEGZubau.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...

JanSt 2y ago

Decades of fear spread by the Greens (Bündnis 90/Die Grünen) and the media have made any argument in favor of nuclear power a waste of time in Germany. It's really sad that the party which stands for climate protection and the environment is the main culprit for shutting down nuclear power in Germany, thereby keeping coal power running for now.

guardian5x 2y ago
Well, we still don't even have a solution for nuclear waste. It's not like nuclear has no problems.
- JanSt 2y ago
  Of course there are solutions. Look at Finland. Also, how many nuclear waste death do we have per year? How much do we pay for it's current storage? How does it change the climate? How much nuclear waste is there even? There is no nuclear waste problem. It's FUD.
  - Y-bar 2y ago
    Finland's Posiva long-term disposal plant are still doing trial runs after 40 years of work: https://www.posiva.fi/en/index/news/pressreleasesstockexchangereleases/2024/undergroundfinaldisposalfacilitiesachievereadinessfortrialrunoffinaldisposal.html https://www.posiva.fi/en/index/news/pressreleasesstockexchan...
- troupo 2y ago
  > Well, we still don't even have a solution for nuclear waste. We do. The requirement for hugely complex disposal sites is mostly a political one. There's very little long-term hazardous waste that we need to take care of, and we already know how to store it for a very long time. Only 0.2% of all waste is long term highly radioactive: https://international.andra.fr/sites/international/files/2020-03/Andra-MAJ_Essentiels_2020_UK.pdf https://international.andra.fr/sites/international/files/202...
kvgr 2y ago

HlessClaudesman 2y ago

Where is the gas comming from?

dsq 2y ago

Nuclear can be a win-win. Build enough to reach peak use, and then use the extra capacity during low use hours for producing hydrogen for clean vehicle fuel. All at near zero CO2 emission.