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ARM torpedoes Windows on ARM: Demands destruction of all PCs with Snapdragon X
- heinrich5991 2y agoOrginal article, submission link is machine-translated by the publisher: https://www.heise.de/news/ARM-will-Verkauf-aller-neuen-PCs-mit-Windows-on-ARM-stoppen-9758354.html https://www.heise.de/news/ARM-will-Verkauf-aller-neuen-PCs-m....
- vetinari 2y agoWarning: this publisher requires either enabling tracking cookies, or paid subscription. There's no privacy-preserving way to read the article.
- heinrich5991 2y agoThey helpfully send the whole article before asking you to enable tracking cookies. You can e.g. use reader mode to read the article. This mostly seems like an oversight on their part though. Archive link: https://archive.is/kGByU https://archive.is/kGByU.
- soraminazuki 2y agoOr https://archive.is/adAmO https://archive.is/adAmO for English.
- guappa 2y agoReader mode works for me on firefox.
- gajnadsgjoas 2y agoWhat do you mean no privacy-preserving way? The subscription is the one
- Y-bar 2y ago"pay or okay" has been ruled illegal _on that specific site_ by the German Data Protection Agency: https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illegal-decides-german-dpa https://noyb.eu/en/pay-or-okay-tech-news-site-heisede-illega...
- Rinzler89 2y agoSo why aren't they complying?
- Y-bar 2y agoAs mentioned in the article the site maliciously complied by (barely) changing the behaviour, which meant that the complaint has been renewed: > Felix Mikolasch, Data Protection Lawyer at noyb: “It seems that the LfD's decision has already been overtaken by the latest version of the "Pay or Okay" banner. We will of course go back to the LfD and continue to fight this practice.”
- vetinari 2y agoIt is not. By subscribing you uniquely identify yourself, with your real-world identity. Is is not necessary to use tracking cookies, when you log-in with your credentials.
- grishka 2y agoThe privacy-preserving way to browse the web is to disable third-party cookies in your browser.
- netsharc 2y ago> Warning: this publisher requires either enabling tracking cookies, or paid subscription. Yes they're asses... > There's no privacy-preserving way to read the article. .. but, viewing with incognito mode should destroy the cookies on exit, and if you're worried about IP tracking, VPN?
- soraminazuki 2y agoYep, you can only select "Zustimmen (agree)" for "Datenverarbeitungen von Werbeanbietern einschl. personalisierter Werbung mit Profilbildung (data processing by advertising providers including personalized advertising with profiling)." I was disappointed to find this out after navigating through text written in an unfamiliar language and a complicated cookie dialog comparable to this [1]. German cookie dialog on an English article, is that even legal? [1]: https://cookieconsentspeed.run https://cookieconsentspeed.run
- pjc50 2y agoWithout going into the details, I suspect this is all Qualcomm's fault. There's a reason that Apple had to go in-house to get a high quality ARM system working.
- pantalaimon 2y agoI don’t get it. Qualcomm has an architecture license. Nuvia had an architecture license and developed the new Oryon CPU core with it. Now Qualcomm bought Nuvia, but ARM says it can’t use Nuvia's core with its own arch license - it must pay a second time.
- xinayder 2y agoMy guess is that, when Nuvia was bought off by Qualcomm, the license from ARM was no longer valid, since Nuvia ceased to exist, or rather, the license is non-transferable.
- andyferris 2y agoIs that the way acquisitions really work? The legal entity usually persists, it’s just wholly controlled by another.
- colechristensen 2y agoThe conflict is over whether the license is transferable. Arm never would have sold that license to Qualcomm, especially with those terms, especially for that purpose. Qualcomm bought a company because they had a license arm wouldn’t sell them. It comes down to subtleties in the contracts.
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoNo, Qualcomm had already acquired an arch license from ARM, they had one before the purchase. The issue is that the Nuvia arch license had extra terms that the Qualcomm one didn't. ARM claims that the IP created under the Nuvia license cannot be transferred to be under the Qualcomm license. Qualcomm contends that it can.
- aurareturn 2y agoARM helped Nuvia develop a core for servers where ARM wanted more marketshare. Qualcomm buys Nuvia and decides to put the Nuvia core in laptops and phones first. Now of course, ARM is not happy about that. They spent resources to help Nuvia develop the core for servers. Now Qualcomm is using the Nuvia core to compete with stock ARM Cortex designs in phones, laptops, and servers. ARM makes money from ISA and stock-ARM core licensing. They make way more money if you use their stock cores than if you only use their ISA. Oryon would only be using the ISA. Apple SoCs also use only the ISA. Not only does ARM lose money from Qualcomm switching from Cortex cores to Oryon cores, they now have a legitimate competitor for Cortex SoCs other than Apple. Qualcomm was also the the strongest lobbyist against the Nvidia/ARM deal. They don't want the competition from stock ARM cores backed by Nvidia. They don't want to compete with a combined Nvidia+ARM. They just want to compete with stock ARM cores with their Nuvia cores. Other ARM vendors like Mediatek, Samsung have no ability to create better cores than Nuvia's cores. They can only rely on stock ARM core designs. Therefore, Qualcomm's Nuvia-derived cores should always be the high end* while other ARM vendors can only fight in the mid-range, which have much lower margins. Had Nvidia acquired ARM, Qualcomm would have been competing against ARM + Nvidia IP + Nvidia money. I actually bought some Qualcomm stocks because I saw how Qualcomm outmaneuvered ARM. *Assuming that stock ARM cores won't surpass Qualcomm's Nuvia-derived cores
- adrian_b 2y agoI have not heard anything about ARM helping Nuvia in any way. The legal complaint of ARM has been that the license they had granted to Nuvia was limited in scope, i.e. it allowed Nuvia to only design a core for server CPUs, so as soon as Nuvia has repurposed that core, the existing ARM license has been lawfully terminated. Moreover, ARM has argued that even if the buyer of Nuvia, Qualcomm, has an ARM license for CPUs that can be used in laptops, this license is not applicable to the Nuvia cores, because a significant part of their design has already happened under the Nuvia license, so it has become illegal after that license had been terminated. So ARM wants that Qualcomm should either buy a new, more expensive license, or destroy all the design work leading to the Nuvia cores and start a new cleanroom design of laptop cores, to be used perhaps in their 2029 laptop products. Without access to the text of the secret contracts between ARM and Qualcomm and between ARM and Nuvia, it is impossible to decide which of the legal arguments of Qualcomm or of ARM are a complete BS. Normally such contracts should have been unambiguous enough that such a legal fight should have never been possible, but it seems that at least one of the parties has concluded that it is possible to twist the meaning of the contracts according to their business interests. In any case, conditioning a design license in function of the application domain seems abusive. What could be acceptable would be only a per-device royalty fee that is computed differently depending on the application domain.
- Y_Y 2y agoARM Torpedoes sounds like a good complement to Windows for Submarines
- ggm 2y agoIs this "nobody much cares" or "licencing disputes are why we cannot have nice things"
- fingerlocks 2y ago> For years, ARM wanted to get its CPU instruction set into notebooks and desktop PCs. Now, for the first time, there is a realistic opportunity and ARM is torpedoing it to get a bigger slice of the pie. What’s with the heavy handed pro-Qualcomm/anti-ARM bias in this news piece? My interpretation is obvious breach of contract by Qualcomm. Seems very cut and dry from the facts laid out in this very same article. I have no skin in this race, just thought it was odd.
- bluescrn 2y ago> What’s with the heavy handed pro-Qualcomm/anti-ARM bias in this news piece? Pro shiny new devices and moving Windows into an ARM future, vs. Anti throwing away loads of work/tech over IP squabbles/greed (whoever is responsible for it)?
- netsharc 2y agoFrom the environmental point of view, it's incredible that they want these machines, built with so much energy and resources (e.g. a chip fab uses a lot of water [1], and a laptop is more than just chips), to just be destroyed... [1] https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shortage-arizona-drought https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shorta...
- bravetraveler 2y agoCan't let anyone know/feel how we've been drip-fed improvements for personal enrichment
- bluescrn 2y agoPerfectly normal behaviour these days, sadly: https://x.com/RDKLInc/status/1743460577391808825 https://x.com/RDKLInc/status/1743460577391808825 Not to mention the planned obsolecence of non-upgradeable machines with near-unreplaceable battery packs (a very popular 'dark pattern' these days in device design, clearly aimed at encouraging people to replace the entire device more frequently)
- 2y ago
- mschuster91 2y ago... and this kind of nonsense is why x86 is alive, well, and likely to dominate the desktop space for decades. Intel and AMD managed to sort out that bullshit decades ago, Intel even copied AMD's x64 extensions as Itanium fell flat. It's not like ARM has something competitive with Intel in performance on their own - everyone but Apple and Annapurna/Amazon uses stock cores and they frankly suck. And instead of entering negotiations to copy from what either Apple or Amazon did with ARM to bring the entire ecosystem forward, they attempt to shoot Qualcomm. (The fact that Qualcomm itself sucks as a company makes all of that even more absurd)
- Dalewyn 2y agoThe Intel fanboi (and thus x86 fanboi) in me is pleasantly surprised at this comedy show, but objectively this feels like something I should feel annoyed/saddened by.
- mschuster91 2y agoI'm actually more of an ARM person, simply because neither Intel nor AMD managed to get power efficiency under control, not even after Apple's M1 ripped the x86 world to shreds. The problem is, the ARM world never got away from crappy BSPs or managed to get any kind of standardization. Anyone reasonably skilled can get at least a basic "hello world" running that uses BIOS routines to draw characters on a screen and it will work on any x86 compliant machine, no matter its age - there is no equivalent that will work on ARM devices. None at all. Every tiny device, from embedded gadgets to full blown phones, has to have its own kernel build. What a mess that is.
- nasretdinov 2y agoI think it's just never been a concern for embedded systems, which ARM has been used for mostly. Surely there is some standardisation coming, it'll just have to take a lot of time since there a lot of parties who need to come together.
- 2y ago
- wyldfire 2y agoIt makes for dramatic headlines, intended to scare Qualcomm customers into bringing pressure to bear on Qualcomm to settle with ARM. The laptops are supposed to make their retail debut in the next day or two. I think a court would be crazy to accept the demand from the headline which doesn't benefit either litigant.
- tibbydudeza 2y agoSoftBank is nickel and diming their customers to make up for the ARM sale to nVidia that fell through. I think ARM on Windows will die eventually - what does it bring to the party ???. Looking at Lunar Lake which is very much like the M series there is still much life left in that old dog :).
- Moldoteck 2y agoit brings more battery life? I know that new intel/amd processors are more efficient, but are these efficient enough to compete with arm?
- bitsandboots 2y agoI suspect the short answer is "no", and the long answer is "if battery life is good enough who will care?" My amd laptop from 3 years ago varies from 5-10 hours depending on workload. Compared to my mac its usually half the battery life. But how many people need more than 5? They exist. But at that point the factors of price, performance, and compatibility are very relevant. Reminds me of the state of phones now. Early smartphones had pathetic battery life. Now it's reached the point I don't care because the battery life of all the phones exceeds the daily use. Other factors now dominate.
- lugu 2y agoThe industry is looking and taking notes: Qualcomm a major IP holder doesn't want to pay for IP while ARM prefer money over the success of its ecosystem. RISC-V immediately comes to mind as a long term alternative. Thank you ARM and Qualcomm.
- Wytwwww 2y agoWould it be any better if Qualcomm developed their own proprietary RISC-V cores with proprietary/patented extensions that most software would be reliant on? Currently Qualcomm and ARM are somewhat balancing each other out, with RISC-V if Qualcomm got significantly ahead they'd probably be in a position where it would be impossible for anyone to compete against them (I can't really see any reason for them to make their extensions freely available to their competitors).
- pjmlp 2y agoIt is as likely to happen as the Year of Linux Desktop, on laptops bought by normies at the local shopping mall.
- lugu 2y agoChromebooks. Remember that part of the industry lives in China and has large ambitions. Thanks for the reality check.
- pjmlp 2y agoChromebooks are not GNU/Linux, rather a browser running on top of a POSIX kernel that happens to be Linux kernel, and could be Zirkon or a BSD tomorrow if Google felt so inclined, with the ability to run GNU/Linux workloads inside of a VM. It is as desktop as running a Linux distribution inside Virtual Box.
- rstuart4133 2y ago> Chromebooks are not GNU/Linux, rather a browser running on top of a POSIX kernel that happens to be Linux kernel That happens to be build using gcc, glibc and wayland. If you enable "developer mode" you get access to a subset of coreutils like "cp". You also get "chromebrew" which allows you to install the rest. I think it's fair to say it's GNU/Linux stripped back to the bare essentials, with a custom desktop and a few GUI apps added. And the ability to add a fair chunk of the stripped stuff back. https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guides/device/developer-mode/#dev-mode https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/guide... > could be Zirkon or a BSD tomorrow if Google felt so inclined, with the ability to run GNU/Linux workloads inside of a VM. Yes, well Windows could also be a Zirkon or a BSD tomorrow, with the ability to run Windows workloads inside of a VM.
- anonymousiam 2y agoARM stock is up 7% today, so I guess this is not bad news.
- johnea 2y agoJust another reason to abandon ARM for RISC-V... Of course, it's also another reason to abandon windoze...