5 ms·

Debian Diversity Statement accepted

26 points by ibotty 14y ago

ibotty 14y ago
quote: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community.
- paulgb 14y ago
  Is that the version that has been accepted in its entirety? I haven't been following this but also found another version on their mailing list: > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. > We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about joining. Although we may not be able to satisty everyone, we will always work to treat everyone well. > Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong. > Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture and technical ability. > Ideas and wording for this statement were based on diversity statements from the Ubuntu community <http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/diversity> http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/diversity>, the Python community <http://www.python.org/community/diversity&#62 http://www.python.org/community/diversity> and Dreamwidth Studios <http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity> http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity>. > This document is usable under a Creative Commons 3.0 BY-SA license.
  - ibotty 14y ago
    the official page has the version i quoted. what you quoted also looks kind of familiar. maybe an older revision. http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2012/05/msg00011.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2012/05/msg00011.html
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  At some point these things become so broad that they exclude any non-technical discussion. If Debian welcomes everybody, they also welcome white supremacists, nazis, murderers, hippies, polygamists, and other groups which the West views as undesirable. Under a literal interpretation of their statement, I can make practically any statement and any ostracization would violate their listed principles. What if I say I engage in sending 1000 spam emails to the Debian list every day, and that I believe this will make God happy with me? Debian will be contradicting their statement if they do violence to my spam messages, because they will not be respectful of my religion. Here's a less disruptive scenario in terms of the ability for the list to function: What if I believe it is my religious responsiblity to broadcast the message "God Hates Fags" to the Debian list, as the WBC in the US believes it is their religious responsibility to broadcast this message to the US populous via street protests? Debian would contradict their statement if any ostracization occurred on their list, if my messages were banned, if I were asked to change my sig, or if any other direct negative consequence was perpetrated or assisted by a Debian developer because of my post. If Hans Reiser ever writes a Debian list, I expect him to be treated like any other contributor based on that statement. What is this supposed to mean or solve? I don't really get it. If the intention is to stop any politically incorrect speech, a literal reading of that statement surely does not do so. Why do we want to stop all politically incorrect speech in the first place? EDIT: Note, this has been edited. Some upvoters may have upvoted when less incendiary language was in use.
  - sciurus 14y ago
    What part of "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community" did you miss?
    - cookiecaper 14y ago
      And who determines what represents a constructive interaction? Is it something that upsets people? If so, doesn't that mean that Debian does not respect religious or ideological beliefs that are interpreted as threatening by the mainstream WASP (as Debian is mainly comprised of WASP contributors)? If so, what was the point of this statement, again?
ta12121 14y ago
What exactly was the motivation for this? Was there actually a problem?
- roopeshv 14y ago
  atleast from the way it is written; i guess sexism, racism, eliticism, trolls, may be some narcissism as well
- liw 14y ago
  There does not need to be a problem, it can be a good idea for a person or a project to express their ideals and values anyway. That said, Debian has very few female developers (1-2%?), and is generally skewed towards white, ethnically European males who are sysadmins or programmers and who mainly work on packaging software. See for example the group photos from the yearly Debian conference (debconf.org). There's room for a lot more diversity: various genders; ethnic backgrounds; technical interests and skills; lingistic, social and cultural backgrounds; personalities; etc. There is fairly little overt rejection of those who are different from the majority of Debian developers, but there is definitely some inadvertent systemic preference to recruit more of the same. I don't know about recent intentional pressure to exclude those who divert from the traditional mainstream: I am a privileged white European male, I would not even notice if someone else does not feel welcome for whatever reason. I would like to notice, and I would like everyone to be welcome. The diversity statement is one step in making sure Debian is welcoming, and becomes more welcoming in the future. It doesn't make any active changes, but it changes the mindset of the members of Debian. These issues are not, of course, in any way restricted to Debian. Free software development in general suffers from them. (Disclaimer: I am a Debian developer since 1996. I am a supporter of the Debian-Women project. I am biased.)
jcurbo 14y ago
For those that might be confused, the actual vote page is http://www.debian.org/vote/2012/vote_002 http://www.debian.org/vote/2012/vote_002 and goes into detail about what is being voted on. I don't think Debian has a problem with diversity; as an example, the Debian Women group has been around since 2004: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://women.debian.org/home/ Maybe this is more about getting non-programmer/sysadmin types involved in Debian. (There's an interesting interview with the proposer, Francesca Ciceri, here: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2012/04/06/people-behind-debian-francesca-ciceri-member-of-debian-press-publicity-teams/ http://raphaelhertzog.com/2012/04/06/people-behind-debian-fr...)
- sciurus 14y ago
  If you care about the discussion that occurred before a voet was proposed, it took place at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html
SkyMarshal 14y ago
I wonder if Debian is the only Linux distro prominently named after a woman. The 'Deb' is from Debrah Lynn, Debian's founder's girlfriend (and Ian from the founder, Ian Murdock). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#1993.E2.80.931998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#1993.E2.80.931998
ciupicri 14y ago
Related: http://www.osnews.com/story/26005/Women_in_IT_don_t_need_special_treatment http://www.osnews.com/story/26005/Women_in_IT_don_t_need_spe...
sciurus 14y ago
From the FAQ: Q: What is a diversity statement? A: A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really important: that everyone (regardless of whatever thing people may usually be discriminated for) is welcome to join our project. Q: Which will be the consequences of adopting it? A: A diversity statement is not a Code of Conduct. We are not adding new rules. As Russ Allbery said [4]: "It's a statement of ideals. Statements of ideals don't generally change things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things. The influence is at best subtle. But I think statements of ideals are useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something to live up to those ideals. And that that can be as significant of an action as fixing a technical bug." Q: What about hateful ideologies? Do we welcome them as well? A: Here the relevant bit is: "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community". In addition, let me borrow again some words from Russ [5]: "The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align". [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html

26 points by ibotty 14y ago

quote: The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas, and welcome them into our community.

paulgb 14y ago
Is that the version that has been accepted in its entirety? I haven't been following this but also found another version on their mailing list: > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. > We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about joining. Although we may not be able to satisty everyone, we will always work to treat everyone well. > Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong. > Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture and technical ability. > Ideas and wording for this statement were based on diversity statements from the Ubuntu community <http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/diversity> http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/diversity>, the Python community <http://www.python.org/community/diversity&#62 http://www.python.org/community/diversity> and Dreamwidth Studios <http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity> http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity>. > This document is usable under a Creative Commons 3.0 BY-SA license.
- ibotty 14y ago
  the official page has the version i quoted. what you quoted also looks kind of familiar. maybe an older revision. http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2012/05/msg00011.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2012/05/msg00011.html
cookiecaper 14y ago
At some point these things become so broad that they exclude any non-technical discussion. If Debian welcomes everybody, they also welcome white supremacists, nazis, murderers, hippies, polygamists, and other groups which the West views as undesirable. Under a literal interpretation of their statement, I can make practically any statement and any ostracization would violate their listed principles. What if I say I engage in sending 1000 spam emails to the Debian list every day, and that I believe this will make God happy with me? Debian will be contradicting their statement if they do violence to my spam messages, because they will not be respectful of my religion. Here's a less disruptive scenario in terms of the ability for the list to function: What if I believe it is my religious responsiblity to broadcast the message "God Hates Fags" to the Debian list, as the WBC in the US believes it is their religious responsibility to broadcast this message to the US populous via street protests? Debian would contradict their statement if any ostracization occurred on their list, if my messages were banned, if I were asked to change my sig, or if any other direct negative consequence was perpetrated or assisted by a Debian developer because of my post. If Hans Reiser ever writes a Debian list, I expect him to be treated like any other contributor based on that statement. What is this supposed to mean or solve? I don't really get it. If the intention is to stop any politically incorrect speech, a literal reading of that statement surely does not do so. Why do we want to stop all politically incorrect speech in the first place? EDIT: Note, this has been edited. Some upvoters may have upvoted when less incendiary language was in use.
- sciurus 14y ago
  What part of "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community" did you miss?
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    And who determines what represents a constructive interaction? Is it something that upsets people? If so, doesn't that mean that Debian does not respect religious or ideological beliefs that are interpreted as threatening by the mainstream WASP (as Debian is mainly comprised of WASP contributors)? If so, what was the point of this statement, again?

ta12121 14y ago

What exactly was the motivation for this? Was there actually a problem?

roopeshv 14y ago
atleast from the way it is written; i guess sexism, racism, eliticism, trolls, may be some narcissism as well
liw 14y ago
There does not need to be a problem, it can be a good idea for a person or a project to express their ideals and values anyway. That said, Debian has very few female developers (1-2%?), and is generally skewed towards white, ethnically European males who are sysadmins or programmers and who mainly work on packaging software. See for example the group photos from the yearly Debian conference (debconf.org). There's room for a lot more diversity: various genders; ethnic backgrounds; technical interests and skills; lingistic, social and cultural backgrounds; personalities; etc. There is fairly little overt rejection of those who are different from the majority of Debian developers, but there is definitely some inadvertent systemic preference to recruit more of the same. I don't know about recent intentional pressure to exclude those who divert from the traditional mainstream: I am a privileged white European male, I would not even notice if someone else does not feel welcome for whatever reason. I would like to notice, and I would like everyone to be welcome. The diversity statement is one step in making sure Debian is welcoming, and becomes more welcoming in the future. It doesn't make any active changes, but it changes the mindset of the members of Debian. These issues are not, of course, in any way restricted to Debian. Free software development in general suffers from them. (Disclaimer: I am a Debian developer since 1996. I am a supporter of the Debian-Women project. I am biased.)

jcurbo 14y ago

For those that might be confused, the actual vote page is http://www.debian.org/vote/2012/vote_002 http://www.debian.org/vote/2012/vote_002 and goes into detail about what is being voted on. I don't think Debian has a problem with diversity; as an example, the Debian Women group has been around since 2004: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://women.debian.org/home/ Maybe this is more about getting non-programmer/sysadmin types involved in Debian. (There's an interesting interview with the proposer, Francesca Ciceri, here: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2012/04/06/people-behind-debian-francesca-ciceri-member-of-debian-press-publicity-teams/ http://raphaelhertzog.com/2012/04/06/people-behind-debian-fr...)

sciurus 14y ago
If you care about the discussion that occurred before a voet was proposed, it took place at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html

SkyMarshal 14y ago

I wonder if Debian is the only Linux distro prominently named after a woman. The 'Deb' is from Debrah Lynn, Debian's founder's girlfriend (and Ian from the founder, Ian Murdock). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#1993.E2.80.931998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#1993.E2.80.931998

ciupicri 14y ago

Related: http://www.osnews.com/story/26005/Women_in_IT_don_t_need_special_treatment http://www.osnews.com/story/26005/Women_in_IT_don_t_need_spe...

sciurus 14y ago

From the FAQ: Q: What is a diversity statement? A: A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really important: that everyone (regardless of whatever thing people may usually be discriminated for) is welcome to join our project. Q: Which will be the consequences of adopting it? A: A diversity statement is not a Code of Conduct. We are not adding new rules. As Russ Allbery said [4]: "It's a statement of ideals. Statements of ideals don't generally change things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things. The influence is at best subtle. But I think statements of ideals are useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something to live up to those ideals. And that that can be as significant of an action as fixing a technical bug." Q: What about hateful ideologies? Do we welcome them as well? A: Here the relevant bit is: "We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community". In addition, let me borrow again some words from Russ [5]: "The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any kind. It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're actively seeking out and want to align". [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html