4 ms·

I think that many struggle to understand because they think something like "how would it feel to want to be a woman", rather than flip it to their gender. So if

I think that many struggle to understand because they think something like "how would it feel to want to be a woman", rather than flip it to their gender. So if you're a cis man, try to imagine you were a trans man; born female, raised a girl, expected to conform to your local female beauty norms, be expected to bear children, less body hair and muscle mass, curves in places unfamiliar to you, flirted with by men, etc. It's always hard to truly understand how another person views the world, but I've heard that approach work for others in the past.

autoexec 2y ago
> So if you're a cis man, try to imagine you were a trans man; born female, raised a girl, expected to conform to your local female beauty norms, be expected to bear children, less body hair and muscle mass, curves in places unfamiliar to you, flirted with by men, etc. Is it weird if I suspect that it wouldn't bother me? I'd have been raised from birth to expect those things so they wouldn't be surprising to girl-me, and the experience of having more body hair and muscle mass would be entirely foreign to me. If men flirting with me was off-putting I'd probably just assume I was gay, and I'm lucky enough to live in an environment where I don't have to buy into or perform traditional gender roles any more than I want to. It's probably easy for me to say, having never a experienced a mismatch, but any intrinsic sense of inner maleness that wasn't 'nurtured' into me ranks pretty low on the list of things that comprise my self-identity.
- houseplant 2y ago
  You have to understand that until extremely recently- and still, not everywhere, as politics is any indication- people very seriously and genuinely believe that being gay or trans is tantamount to being a pedophile in terms of wrongness. It isn't so much about how you feel, but how others are making you feel. Imagine if you felt fine in your body... but people around you stared and turned up their nose at you wherever you went because there was some kind of rumour that said you were a pedo. Imagine how incredibly harmful that would be, day in and day out, to your psyche, to your mental health, unable to escape it. Imagine if everyone avoided you because- even if they didn't believe you were one- they didn't want to be seen associating with someone everyone thought was one. Imagine if your family believed that. Imagine, no matter how much you tried to say you weren't and prove you weren't, they still believed it, because that's what the culture you're in says it's equal a crime to. It's no doubt that the people who persist because they know their personal truth are unfathomably strong people. And for those who don't make it, you can understand why. Once you realize this injustice, it's hard not to be on their side and be incensed against that prejudice, seeing the laws being passed in the US specifically to harm them, as ludicrous.
- stevage 2y ago
  >Is it weird if I suspect that it wouldn't bother me? I'd have been raised from birth to expect those things so they wouldn't be surprising to girl-me I guess you're making the assumption that "being raised from birth to expect" things is a stronger force than your own innate personality, desires, etc. You might compare it to people who are "raised from birth to expect" to be attracted to the opposite sex, but that just isn't who they are.
- autumnstwilight 2y ago
  I've heard the phrase "cis by default" used to describe this experience (which I mostly share). Essentially, the intensity of feelings regarding gender can vary widely from person into person and so a lot of people are fine with the gender they were born as not because they strongly feel like a woman/man, but precisely because they don't have strong feelings about it. (And therefore being transgender is the intersection of both "having a strong internal feeling about gender" and "the feelings you have about gender not matching what society categorizes your body as".) That said, I suspect that at least some "cis by default" people would indeed experience feelings of a brain-body mismatch if they had different parts, it just happens to be something you can't test for.
  - Mordisquitos 2y ago
    > And therefore being transgender is the intersection of both "having a strong internal feeling about gender" and "the feelings you have about gender not matching what society categorizes your body as" I am another cis man who suspects I would have been just as comfortable had I been born a cis woman, and I have independently come to a similar conclusion. I feel no need to emphasise my social or physical "masculinity", but neither do I make any effort towards being non-gender-conforming — I am perfectly happy having a beard, being hairy and wearing "men's" clothes. Conversely, if I had been born a woman with my same congenital personality, I think I wouldn't have made a particular effort to present my "femininity", but I would have been perfectly comfortable being less hairy, having boobs, and dressing and behaving as do some of my female friends (who are cis and hetero, homo, and bisexual) who, without being GNC, are not necessarily super-feminine. What I would really like to know is whether I'm right in my intuition that certain cis-male and cis-female individuals feel the opposite. I imagine that cis men who enjoy "feeling like a man" or showing manliness (within the non-toxic and healthy range) are pretty sure they would have hated being born a woman. The same goes for cis women who love displaying their femininity; they probably feel they would hate having been born a man if they were to be asked.
  - amysox 2y ago
    That sounds like my experience. I didn't really begin questioning what I really "was" until I got beyond thinking that my desire to dress in women's clothing was more than just a "fetish," and I decided to see what I'd look like with a full feminine presentation. The answer was: I looked like me. And I turned out to be far more "passable" than I thought. (There's always going to be people that recognize me for what I am. But, for the most part, they don't insult me about it to my face, or even mention it at all.)
hnbad 2y ago
Exactly. As a cis man the closest I have experienced was being mistaken for a girl (both as a kid and later when I had long hair) and getting cat-called or receiving unwanted sexual comments from strangers. Those situations were rapidly defused when the people in question realized I was male (although as an adult I was genuinely worried it might result in violence if I didn't also ensure they understood I was straight) but I can't imagine what it would be like when most people wouldn't and would insist I'm a gender I'm not. Especially if my body also unhelpfully changed through hormone washes in ways that contradict my gender identity.

autoexec 2y ago

> So if you're a cis man, try to imagine you were a trans man; born female, raised a girl, expected to conform to your local female beauty norms, be expected to bear children, less body hair and muscle mass, curves in places unfamiliar to you, flirted with by men, etc. Is it weird if I suspect that it wouldn't bother me? I'd have been raised from birth to expect those things so they wouldn't be surprising to girl-me, and the experience of having more body hair and muscle mass would be entirely foreign to me. If men flirting with me was off-putting I'd probably just assume I was gay, and I'm lucky enough to live in an environment where I don't have to buy into or perform traditional gender roles any more than I want to. It's probably easy for me to say, having never a experienced a mismatch, but any intrinsic sense of inner maleness that wasn't 'nurtured' into me ranks pretty low on the list of things that comprise my self-identity.

houseplant 2y ago
You have to understand that until extremely recently- and still, not everywhere, as politics is any indication- people very seriously and genuinely believe that being gay or trans is tantamount to being a pedophile in terms of wrongness. It isn't so much about how you feel, but how others are making you feel. Imagine if you felt fine in your body... but people around you stared and turned up their nose at you wherever you went because there was some kind of rumour that said you were a pedo. Imagine how incredibly harmful that would be, day in and day out, to your psyche, to your mental health, unable to escape it. Imagine if everyone avoided you because- even if they didn't believe you were one- they didn't want to be seen associating with someone everyone thought was one. Imagine if your family believed that. Imagine, no matter how much you tried to say you weren't and prove you weren't, they still believed it, because that's what the culture you're in says it's equal a crime to. It's no doubt that the people who persist because they know their personal truth are unfathomably strong people. And for those who don't make it, you can understand why. Once you realize this injustice, it's hard not to be on their side and be incensed against that prejudice, seeing the laws being passed in the US specifically to harm them, as ludicrous.
stevage 2y ago
>Is it weird if I suspect that it wouldn't bother me? I'd have been raised from birth to expect those things so they wouldn't be surprising to girl-me I guess you're making the assumption that "being raised from birth to expect" things is a stronger force than your own innate personality, desires, etc. You might compare it to people who are "raised from birth to expect" to be attracted to the opposite sex, but that just isn't who they are.
autumnstwilight 2y ago
I've heard the phrase "cis by default" used to describe this experience (which I mostly share). Essentially, the intensity of feelings regarding gender can vary widely from person into person and so a lot of people are fine with the gender they were born as not because they strongly feel like a woman/man, but precisely because they don't have strong feelings about it. (And therefore being transgender is the intersection of both "having a strong internal feeling about gender" and "the feelings you have about gender not matching what society categorizes your body as".) That said, I suspect that at least some "cis by default" people would indeed experience feelings of a brain-body mismatch if they had different parts, it just happens to be something you can't test for.
- Mordisquitos 2y ago
  > And therefore being transgender is the intersection of both "having a strong internal feeling about gender" and "the feelings you have about gender not matching what society categorizes your body as" I am another cis man who suspects I would have been just as comfortable had I been born a cis woman, and I have independently come to a similar conclusion. I feel no need to emphasise my social or physical "masculinity", but neither do I make any effort towards being non-gender-conforming — I am perfectly happy having a beard, being hairy and wearing "men's" clothes. Conversely, if I had been born a woman with my same congenital personality, I think I wouldn't have made a particular effort to present my "femininity", but I would have been perfectly comfortable being less hairy, having boobs, and dressing and behaving as do some of my female friends (who are cis and hetero, homo, and bisexual) who, without being GNC, are not necessarily super-feminine. What I would really like to know is whether I'm right in my intuition that certain cis-male and cis-female individuals feel the opposite. I imagine that cis men who enjoy "feeling like a man" or showing manliness (within the non-toxic and healthy range) are pretty sure they would have hated being born a woman. The same goes for cis women who love displaying their femininity; they probably feel they would hate having been born a man if they were to be asked.
- amysox 2y ago
  That sounds like my experience. I didn't really begin questioning what I really "was" until I got beyond thinking that my desire to dress in women's clothing was more than just a "fetish," and I decided to see what I'd look like with a full feminine presentation. The answer was: I looked like me. And I turned out to be far more "passable" than I thought. (There's always going to be people that recognize me for what I am. But, for the most part, they don't insult me about it to my face, or even mention it at all.)

hnbad 2y ago

Exactly. As a cis man the closest I have experienced was being mistaken for a girl (both as a kid and later when I had long hair) and getting cat-called or receiving unwanted sexual comments from strangers. Those situations were rapidly defused when the people in question realized I was male (although as an adult I was genuinely worried it might result in violence if I didn't also ensure they understood I was straight) but I can't imagine what it would be like when most people wouldn't and would insist I'm a gender I'm not. Especially if my body also unhelpfully changed through hormone washes in ways that contradict my gender identity.