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This is a strange comment. Economic success and executive pay packages don't disqualify the claim that there is an image problem. If anything, Musk getting a $

by RIMR 2y ago

This is a strange comment. Economic success and executive pay packages don't disqualify the claim that there is an image problem. If anything, Musk getting a $45B package after a year of failures and layoffs at Tesla is something that tarnishes Musk and Tesla's image. The fact that this cash package is almost exactly what he owes creditors for the loans he took out buying Twitter, it almost looks like he's begging Tesla for an undo button for his own terrible decisions. As for Apple making a deal with OpenAI, the fact that every product integrating ChatGPT is just being ruthless enshittified as a result, this is terrible optics for Apple when their biggest competitor, Microsoft, is currently playing target practice with its feet shipping poorly advised AI integrations (see: Recall). As for OpenAI's image, the only thing they have going for them is the technical impressiveness of ChatGPT - organizationally everyone I know in the tech space assumes that OpenAI is a dumpster fire of a company.

rayiner 2y ago
> If anything, Musk getting a $45B package after a year of failures and layoffs at Tesla is something that tarnishes Musk and Tesla's image I hate to defend executive comp, but Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018. Half of all EVs sold in the US are Teslas. In 2023, the Model Y was the world’s bestselling car, outselling the Toyota Corolla. That’s completely insane. What more do you want?
- threeseed 2y ago
  a) Full-time, engaged CEO free of conflicts of interest e.g. X.ai. b) Stop devaluing the Tesla brand with his controversial, inflammatory comments. c) Compensation package that is more reasonable compared with other companies.
- troupo 2y ago
  > but Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018 The speculation on Tesla's stock raised the "market cap". Any stock that Tesla doesn't own brings Tesla exactly 0 dollars, no matter how hight the illusionary market cap there is. How much of the stock does Tesla actually own? How much of the stock that Tesla owns can the company safely sell to offset the $45 billion of actual money that they had to cough up for Elon?
  - tedunangst 2y ago
    They're not writing Elon a check for $45 billion.
    - troupo 2y ago
      Yeah, if it was just stock, then its value fluctuates wildly
  - acchow 2y ago
    They don't have to cough up any money. The 2018 compensation package they agreed upon is in stock options with vesting in 12 tranches, tied to stock price performance https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-announces-new-long-term-performance-award-elon-musk https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-announces-new-long-...
  - rayiner 2y ago
    The stock price increase directly benefits Tesla shareholders. It also reflects revenue growing by 5x since 2018 and the company becoming profitable since 2020.
- BlarfMcFlarf 2y ago
  It’s also, what, 3 years of profits by Tesla? Where does the money come from?
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Should've let him keep the options we granted him back in 2018. Taking away his performance-based compensation is total bullshit. I voted to give it back. His options were worthless for most of that time. He got the stock to appreciate a lot and some guy with 6 shares sued him for this crap so that the lawyers and him could split $5 b that a judge granted them. If anyone took away a software engineers options here after a company became successful because the company later decided it's too much there'd be hell to pay. Everyone rightfully complained about Zynga doing this. But here it's fine? Bullshit. I voted to pay the man his due. I voted to move the corp out of Delaware to Texas. He made me money under reasonable terms. Back then everyone said he'd just fail.
  - acchow 2y ago
    They are stock options. The money comes from the open market if he decides to sell the shares, and the shares themselves come from share dilution if he decides to exercise the options.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  >...Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018 Another way to think about this is that investors are in a position where they got that wildly ambitious growth, and are currently not obligated to pay for it, so why would they? This is to the guy that has no problems breaking contracts of his own, and gives the finger to people he owes money to. I guess we'll see when this comes to a vote, but it would be shrewd business not to.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  Boards are supposed to be forward-looking. Typically a board would electively reward a CEO who has delivered out-sized performance out of fear that the CEO would leave for a different job (creating a bad future for the company). This situation, though, has a different set of forward-looking concerns. Musk already has several other jobs. And the primary concern is that he wants this large pay package so that he can have more personal resources to put toward those other jobs (at the expense of Tesla). As it stands now, Musk’s personal financial position depends on leverage against his Tesla position. This binds him to Tesla’s future performance. Giving him a huge personal pay package essentially weakens that binding, giving him greater license to deprioritize his Tesla leadership in favor of SpaceX, Xai, Neuralink, etc. There is an argument to be made that Tesla’s board should be essentially antagonistic toward Musk’s other companies, given that his time and attention are finite resources, and Tesla is a public company. The board has responsibilities to investors to maximize their return, which should take precedence over whatever feelings of gratitude or connection they feel toward Musk personally.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > What more do you want? I believe in honouring deals, even if it’s unsavoury ex post facto. Until recently, that meant approving the pay package. But Musk unilaterally amended the deal when he “threatened on X…to develop AI elsewhere if he doesn’t get a 25% stake in Tesla” [1]. Then he developed AI elsewhere [2]. If you promise to give me a dollar, you dither, I say I’ll burn your house down if you don’t, and then I burn your house down, I don’t believe you owe me the dollar anymore. Musk should offer to return xAI’s funding and merge it into Tesla in exchange for the vote. [1] https://apnews.com/article/tesla-elon-musk-pay-package-shareholder-vote-7b20bf358dcc8fb467214819a3cb25d9 https://apnews.com/article/tesla-elon-musk-pay-package-share... [2] https://x.ai/blog/series-b https://x.ai/blog/series-b

by RIMR 2y ago

rayiner 2y ago

> If anything, Musk getting a $45B package after a year of failures and layoffs at Tesla is something that tarnishes Musk and Tesla's image I hate to defend executive comp, but Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018. Half of all EVs sold in the US are Teslas. In 2023, the Model Y was the world’s bestselling car, outselling the Toyota Corolla. That’s completely insane. What more do you want?

threeseed 2y ago
a) Full-time, engaged CEO free of conflicts of interest e.g. X.ai. b) Stop devaluing the Tesla brand with his controversial, inflammatory comments. c) Compensation package that is more reasonable compared with other companies.
troupo 2y ago
> but Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018 The speculation on Tesla's stock raised the "market cap". Any stock that Tesla doesn't own brings Tesla exactly 0 dollars, no matter how hight the illusionary market cap there is. How much of the stock does Tesla actually own? How much of the stock that Tesla owns can the company safely sell to offset the $45 billion of actual money that they had to cough up for Elon?
- tedunangst 2y ago
  They're not writing Elon a check for $45 billion.
  - troupo 2y ago
    Yeah, if it was just stock, then its value fluctuates wildly
- acchow 2y ago
  They don't have to cough up any money. The 2018 compensation package they agreed upon is in stock options with vesting in 12 tranches, tied to stock price performance https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-announces-new-long-term-performance-award-elon-musk https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-announces-new-long-...
- rayiner 2y ago
  The stock price increase directly benefits Tesla shareholders. It also reflects revenue growing by 5x since 2018 and the company becoming profitable since 2020.
BlarfMcFlarf 2y ago
It’s also, what, 3 years of profits by Tesla? Where does the money come from?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Should've let him keep the options we granted him back in 2018. Taking away his performance-based compensation is total bullshit. I voted to give it back. His options were worthless for most of that time. He got the stock to appreciate a lot and some guy with 6 shares sued him for this crap so that the lawyers and him could split $5 b that a judge granted them. If anyone took away a software engineers options here after a company became successful because the company later decided it's too much there'd be hell to pay. Everyone rightfully complained about Zynga doing this. But here it's fine? Bullshit. I voted to pay the man his due. I voted to move the corp out of Delaware to Texas. He made me money under reasonable terms. Back then everyone said he'd just fail.
- acchow 2y ago
  They are stock options. The money comes from the open market if he decides to sell the shares, and the shares themselves come from share dilution if he decides to exercise the options.
ProfessorLayton 2y ago
>...Tesla’s market cap has gone up by $487 billion (almost 10x) since he was awarded that comp package in 2018 Another way to think about this is that investors are in a position where they got that wildly ambitious growth, and are currently not obligated to pay for it, so why would they? This is to the guy that has no problems breaking contracts of his own, and gives the finger to people he owes money to. I guess we'll see when this comes to a vote, but it would be shrewd business not to.
snowwrestler 2y ago
Boards are supposed to be forward-looking. Typically a board would electively reward a CEO who has delivered out-sized performance out of fear that the CEO would leave for a different job (creating a bad future for the company). This situation, though, has a different set of forward-looking concerns. Musk already has several other jobs. And the primary concern is that he wants this large pay package so that he can have more personal resources to put toward those other jobs (at the expense of Tesla). As it stands now, Musk’s personal financial position depends on leverage against his Tesla position. This binds him to Tesla’s future performance. Giving him a huge personal pay package essentially weakens that binding, giving him greater license to deprioritize his Tesla leadership in favor of SpaceX, Xai, Neuralink, etc. There is an argument to be made that Tesla’s board should be essentially antagonistic toward Musk’s other companies, given that his time and attention are finite resources, and Tesla is a public company. The board has responsibilities to investors to maximize their return, which should take precedence over whatever feelings of gratitude or connection they feel toward Musk personally.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> What more do you want? I believe in honouring deals, even if it’s unsavoury ex post facto. Until recently, that meant approving the pay package. But Musk unilaterally amended the deal when he “threatened on X…to develop AI elsewhere if he doesn’t get a 25% stake in Tesla” [1]. Then he developed AI elsewhere [2]. If you promise to give me a dollar, you dither, I say I’ll burn your house down if you don’t, and then I burn your house down, I don’t believe you owe me the dollar anymore. Musk should offer to return xAI’s funding and merge it into Tesla in exchange for the vote. [1] https://apnews.com/article/tesla-elon-musk-pay-package-shareholder-vote-7b20bf358dcc8fb467214819a3cb25d9 https://apnews.com/article/tesla-elon-musk-pay-package-share... [2] https://x.ai/blog/series-b https://x.ai/blog/series-b