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My apologies, I don't have a waffling permit. Yourself and all your friends are pleased with everything that happened during that time period? My mistake. I can

My apologies, I don't have a waffling permit. Yourself and all your friends are pleased with everything that happened during that time period? My mistake. I can only take you at your word, that's what I mean by lived experience. If you're happy, I'm happy. The Australians I met stuck abroad at the time were... not. You might also look upthread. Maybe their opinions don't count or something.

stephenr 2y ago
Pleased? No. A bunch of people died because a small minority of people wanted to be selfish fuck-holes. But again - as has been pointed out to you already, the policy in discussion is 100% unrelated to COVID, or lockdowns for that matter. You might as well claim that Australia has strict biosecurity rules and doesn't let you bring in a banana because of COVID lockdowns.
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  > But again - as has been pointed out to you already, the policy in discussion is 100% unrelated to COVID, or lockdowns for that matter. Thanks for calling me a pork chop and telling me what is wrongthink. Fire first, ask questions later.. It seems entirely outside your comprehension how such a thing might be abused. Furthermore you aggressively refuse to hear anyone out. Your country, your rules bud. I sincerely hope they never find you disagreeable - as you do me - for any reason. Hope it all works out. But personally I would not be comfortable with someone like you as my border guard. Great country otherwise but won’t chance it.
  - stephenr 2y ago
    > what is wrongthink. It's nothing to do with "wrongthink". It's a completely unrelated topic. Imagine if you were involved in a conversation about the negative impacts of the tobacco industry on society, and I just jumped in with "cars are by far more dangerous than air travel". Regardless of whether what I said is true, it has nothing to do with the existing conversation. You'll notice that I chose a very easy to prove fact for my hypothetical interjection here. You very much did not state a provable fact, but I'm going to ignore that because whether or not what you said is provable, it's still completely unrelated to the topic being discussed. It's nothing to do with finding you "disagreeable". It's pretty basic etiquette when having a conversation. I'm not really sure why you think I would be your border guard, or how you assume I would treat a person in that scenario even if I was? I very much dislike the policy being discussed - warrantless 'demands' to access a phone when crossing the border, I'm just trying to explain to you that - (a) it's unrelated to COVID in any way; and - (b) in my experience the assumption by foreigners (typically Americans but probably not exclusively) that Australians are all "hopping mad" about the government reaction to COVID is vastly overblown. A small number of very vocal, selfish shitheads protested and pretended to be people they're not (i.e. buying hi-vis gear to appear as if they're construction workers). The vast majority of the population has just the slightest bit of common decency and sense of community well being. There's a reason 5x as many cases in the US resulted in deaths, and why the death rate (i.e. deaths per n population) was 3.6x higher - and that's using data updated very recently, so it includes the past 12-18 months when restrictions have been lifted everywhere.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - verticalscaler 2y ago
      > It's nothing to do with finding you "disagreeable". It's pretty basic etiquette when having a conversation. Please tell me more about this etiquette while calling me a foodstuff. Indeed Covid is the unrelated topic, my opening words: Regardless of where you stand on Covid ...the original reasons for draconian law enforcement meant to be temporary are long gone.. The mentality however remains. I can only hope not permanently. Not litigating the past, talking about the present. I say this with all sincerity, come back tomorrow perhaps and reread the exchange with fresh eyes. > I'm not really sure why you think I would be your border guard, or how you assume I would treat a person in that scenario even if I was? You would with some probability jump to conclusions that I'm part of the outgroup and treat me with a heavyhand as demonstrated by this whole exchange. These are not good vibes, hence, unpleasant and disappointing enough for me to steer clear. And I'm quite sure you are more reasonable than the typical border agent. > in my experience the assumption by foreigners (typically Americans but probably not exclusively) that Australians are all "hopping mad" about the government reaction to COVID is vastly overblown Wonderful, what does that have to do with this foreigner? Are you starting to understand the issue?
      - stephenr 2y ago
        > Please tell me more about this etiquette while calling me a foodstuff. I'm sorry you don't appreciate porcine slang. Would you prefer "Why are you going off like a bucket of prawns in the sun?" Or if you like crustaceans but prefer it was a bit snappier (no crab pun intended), how about "Don't come the raw prawn mate?" > the original reasons for draconian law enforcement meant to be temporary are long gone.. How many times do people have to tell you that these measures are unrelated to COVID and pre-date it? COVID is thus not the "original reason" for the law in question, and never has been. > The mentality however remains. What mentality? As much as this hasn't affected me yet personally (and I currently live as an expat in a country that is definitely a popular destination for some of the shifty fuckers they're actually looking for) I'm against the policy, and I would imagine most of my Australian friends would consider it overly invasive if they were told to hand over their PIN. Are you somehow trying to suggest that because Australians in general approved of the restrictions put in place during the pandemic, that they're also likely to approve of this? I very much doubt that. > You would with some probability jump to conclusions that I'm part of the outgroup What "outgroup"? What are you even talking about? > treat me with a heavyhand as demonstrated by this whole exchange Calling someone out for talking shit about a topic they clearly don't know anything about is hardly "heavy handed". > Wonderful, what does that have to do with this foreigner? Well you're a foreigner who yet again made pretty ridiculous claims about Australians and their thoughts regarding how the government handled the pandemic.
defrost 2y ago
> The Australians I met stuck abroad at the time were... not. Of course not - they were stuck outside of Australia during a global pandemic and were unable to return home due to airlines limiting flights and cruiseships being floating cesspools of cross infection. There was also a very vocal minority that strongly objected to restrictions on social gatherings and to various lockdowns when infection appeared that occurred in some of the Australian cities. The vast majority of Australians (I'm one) were mostly pretty hapy with how the situation was handled in Australia with a few exceptions, the Federal Government failing to secure an early volume of vaccines being one of those failiings. Yes, you can go online and find some very vocal Australians complaining very loudly about how it was a total shitshow that trampled their rights, referring to quarantine sites as internment camps, etc. You can also compare that to vastly larger majority than understood the issues, the dangers, and supported the balance struck and measures taken. There is no universe in which a spread of opinion did not exist. Australia had early COVID cases, thanks to fairly uniform measures these were contained and overall the country had a very low death rate by global standards and maintained a strong economy during the pandemic.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- verticalscaler 2y ago
  > Yes, you can go online and find some very vocal Australians Specifically why I wrote lived experience. Which apparently makes me a pork chop. You can imagine the heartbreaks shared with me. They were not antivaxers by any stretch either. As for the phone searches and punishment for wrong think I can again only say: hear your fellow citizens out. If you’re happy, I’m happy. If everyone not happy MUST be a this or a that… I don’t want to visit personally, please understand. I’m not claiming where the line on authoritarianism should be just that I’m not comfortable.
  - defrost 2y ago
    You opened with: > Regardless of where you stand on Covid some countries have handled it extremely poorly in terms of civil liberties with Australia near the top of the list. That makes you a pork chop. At least to the person that used that term. You are holding some strong opinions that raise eyebrows. > You can imagine the heartbreaks shared with me. I can, you don't have a monopoly on stories heard and COVID was at the root of many a sad tale. > As for the phone searches 10K searches in two years when there are more than 3 million transits a month is a very low number - the searches happen in conjunction with other "flags" that prompt deeper inspection of passengers, suspicion of (or actual) smuggling, international flags on various people, suspicious luggage scans, etc. > and punishment for wrong think Which punishment for purely what thoughts are you referring to here ? > If everyone not happy There are people in Australia that are not happy about { A }, other that are unhappy about { B }, it's not the case that everyone is not happy. > I don’t want to visit personally, please understand. That's your choice and you're welcome to it I'm not attempting to persuade you of anything here - you just appear to be holding some odd notions. > I’m not claiming where the line on authoritarianism should be I worked some decades mapping the world and scanning for resources, I've been through customs for nigh on two thirds of 190+ countries on the globe - there are far worse countries to visit and even those can be navigated safely enough if not comfortably.

stephenr 2y ago

Pleased? No. A bunch of people died because a small minority of people wanted to be selfish fuck-holes. But again - as has been pointed out to you already, the policy in discussion is 100% unrelated to COVID, or lockdowns for that matter. You might as well claim that Australia has strict biosecurity rules and doesn't let you bring in a banana because of COVID lockdowns.

verticalscaler 2y ago
> But again - as has been pointed out to you already, the policy in discussion is 100% unrelated to COVID, or lockdowns for that matter. Thanks for calling me a pork chop and telling me what is wrongthink. Fire first, ask questions later.. It seems entirely outside your comprehension how such a thing might be abused. Furthermore you aggressively refuse to hear anyone out. Your country, your rules bud. I sincerely hope they never find you disagreeable - as you do me - for any reason. Hope it all works out. But personally I would not be comfortable with someone like you as my border guard. Great country otherwise but won’t chance it.
- stephenr 2y ago
  > what is wrongthink. It's nothing to do with "wrongthink". It's a completely unrelated topic. Imagine if you were involved in a conversation about the negative impacts of the tobacco industry on society, and I just jumped in with "cars are by far more dangerous than air travel". Regardless of whether what I said is true, it has nothing to do with the existing conversation. You'll notice that I chose a very easy to prove fact for my hypothetical interjection here. You very much did not state a provable fact, but I'm going to ignore that because whether or not what you said is provable, it's still completely unrelated to the topic being discussed. It's nothing to do with finding you "disagreeable". It's pretty basic etiquette when having a conversation. I'm not really sure why you think I would be your border guard, or how you assume I would treat a person in that scenario even if I was? I very much dislike the policy being discussed - warrantless 'demands' to access a phone when crossing the border, I'm just trying to explain to you that - (a) it's unrelated to COVID in any way; and - (b) in my experience the assumption by foreigners (typically Americans but probably not exclusively) that Australians are all "hopping mad" about the government reaction to COVID is vastly overblown. A small number of very vocal, selfish shitheads protested and pretended to be people they're not (i.e. buying hi-vis gear to appear as if they're construction workers). The vast majority of the population has just the slightest bit of common decency and sense of community well being. There's a reason 5x as many cases in the US resulted in deaths, and why the death rate (i.e. deaths per n population) was 3.6x higher - and that's using data updated very recently, so it includes the past 12-18 months when restrictions have been lifted everywhere.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - verticalscaler 2y ago
    > It's nothing to do with finding you "disagreeable". It's pretty basic etiquette when having a conversation. Please tell me more about this etiquette while calling me a foodstuff. Indeed Covid is the unrelated topic, my opening words: Regardless of where you stand on Covid ...the original reasons for draconian law enforcement meant to be temporary are long gone.. The mentality however remains. I can only hope not permanently. Not litigating the past, talking about the present. I say this with all sincerity, come back tomorrow perhaps and reread the exchange with fresh eyes. > I'm not really sure why you think I would be your border guard, or how you assume I would treat a person in that scenario even if I was? You would with some probability jump to conclusions that I'm part of the outgroup and treat me with a heavyhand as demonstrated by this whole exchange. These are not good vibes, hence, unpleasant and disappointing enough for me to steer clear. And I'm quite sure you are more reasonable than the typical border agent. > in my experience the assumption by foreigners (typically Americans but probably not exclusively) that Australians are all "hopping mad" about the government reaction to COVID is vastly overblown Wonderful, what does that have to do with this foreigner? Are you starting to understand the issue?
    - stephenr 2y ago
      > Please tell me more about this etiquette while calling me a foodstuff. I'm sorry you don't appreciate porcine slang. Would you prefer "Why are you going off like a bucket of prawns in the sun?" Or if you like crustaceans but prefer it was a bit snappier (no crab pun intended), how about "Don't come the raw prawn mate?" > the original reasons for draconian law enforcement meant to be temporary are long gone.. How many times do people have to tell you that these measures are unrelated to COVID and pre-date it? COVID is thus not the "original reason" for the law in question, and never has been. > The mentality however remains. What mentality? As much as this hasn't affected me yet personally (and I currently live as an expat in a country that is definitely a popular destination for some of the shifty fuckers they're actually looking for) I'm against the policy, and I would imagine most of my Australian friends would consider it overly invasive if they were told to hand over their PIN. Are you somehow trying to suggest that because Australians in general approved of the restrictions put in place during the pandemic, that they're also likely to approve of this? I very much doubt that. > You would with some probability jump to conclusions that I'm part of the outgroup What "outgroup"? What are you even talking about? > treat me with a heavyhand as demonstrated by this whole exchange Calling someone out for talking shit about a topic they clearly don't know anything about is hardly "heavy handed". > Wonderful, what does that have to do with this foreigner? Well you're a foreigner who yet again made pretty ridiculous claims about Australians and their thoughts regarding how the government handled the pandemic.

defrost 2y ago

> The Australians I met stuck abroad at the time were... not. Of course not - they were stuck outside of Australia during a global pandemic and were unable to return home due to airlines limiting flights and cruiseships being floating cesspools of cross infection. There was also a very vocal minority that strongly objected to restrictions on social gatherings and to various lockdowns when infection appeared that occurred in some of the Australian cities. The vast majority of Australians (I'm one) were mostly pretty hapy with how the situation was handled in Australia with a few exceptions, the Federal Government failing to secure an early volume of vaccines being one of those failiings. Yes, you can go online and find some very vocal Australians complaining very loudly about how it was a total shitshow that trampled their rights, referring to quarantine sites as internment camps, etc. You can also compare that to vastly larger majority than understood the issues, the dangers, and supported the balance struck and measures taken. There is no universe in which a spread of opinion did not exist. Australia had early COVID cases, thanks to fairly uniform measures these were contained and overall the country had a very low death rate by global standards and maintained a strong economy during the pandemic.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
verticalscaler 2y ago
> Yes, you can go online and find some very vocal Australians Specifically why I wrote lived experience. Which apparently makes me a pork chop. You can imagine the heartbreaks shared with me. They were not antivaxers by any stretch either. As for the phone searches and punishment for wrong think I can again only say: hear your fellow citizens out. If you’re happy, I’m happy. If everyone not happy MUST be a this or a that… I don’t want to visit personally, please understand. I’m not claiming where the line on authoritarianism should be just that I’m not comfortable.
- defrost 2y ago
  You opened with: > Regardless of where you stand on Covid some countries have handled it extremely poorly in terms of civil liberties with Australia near the top of the list. That makes you a pork chop. At least to the person that used that term. You are holding some strong opinions that raise eyebrows. > You can imagine the heartbreaks shared with me. I can, you don't have a monopoly on stories heard and COVID was at the root of many a sad tale. > As for the phone searches 10K searches in two years when there are more than 3 million transits a month is a very low number - the searches happen in conjunction with other "flags" that prompt deeper inspection of passengers, suspicion of (or actual) smuggling, international flags on various people, suspicious luggage scans, etc. > and punishment for wrong think Which punishment for purely what thoughts are you referring to here ? > If everyone not happy There are people in Australia that are not happy about { A }, other that are unhappy about { B }, it's not the case that everyone is not happy. > I don’t want to visit personally, please understand. That's your choice and you're welcome to it I'm not attempting to persuade you of anything here - you just appear to be holding some odd notions. > I’m not claiming where the line on authoritarianism should be I worked some decades mapping the world and scanning for resources, I've been through customs for nigh on two thirds of 190+ countries on the globe - there are far worse countries to visit and even those can be navigated safely enough if not comfortably.