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History would disagree with you there pretty strongly. Norway (and Scandiland in general) was fought over for millennia, leading to an extremely rich, interesti

History would disagree with you there pretty strongly. Norway (and Scandiland in general) was fought over for millennia, leading to an extremely rich, interesting, and bloody history - even well after the Viking era. As a somewhat random aside this [1] book is an extremely interesting read for anybody into history - the 'King's Mirror.' It's a book written around 1250 intended exclusively for the education of a Norwegian King. It takes the Plato-type style of a question and answer session between a learned man (father) and pupil (son). It covers basically every aspect of life, but the most interesting thing about it that it was written near a millennia ago now, yet so many things in it feel so incredibly familiar. The Wiki page links to a bunch of different free translations. Here [2] is the one that I read. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1#Editions,_facsimiles_and_translations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1#Editions... [2] - https://archive.org/details/kingsmirrorspecu00konuuoft https://archive.org/details/kingsmirrorspecu00konuuoft

SoftTalker 2y ago
> it was written near a millennia ago now, yet so many things in it feel so incredibly familiar It's sometimes forgotten that 13th century humans were the same as us.
- dieselgate 2y ago
  Pretty crazy how that’s not even 1k years ago. Humans have been the same for like, at least dozens of thousands of years? Maybe even more?
  - temp0826 2y ago
    Homo sapiens (with the exact hardware that we carry today) emerged ~300k years ago. Wikipedia says- "Humans began exhibiting behavioral modernity about 160,000–70,000 years ago, and possibly earlier."
    - datameta 2y ago
      I think modern hardware would be more like 200k, no? I believe 300k is robust/archaic Homo sapiens.
- godelski 2y ago
  It's often forgotten how much conflict there was in Europe (and most of the world) in the 18th and 19th centuries. How this was fairly "normal" It's really forgotten how relatively peaceful our time is. I'm not complaining, in fact, I want to protect it. And that means we can't forget what was. https://youtu.be/UY9P0QSxlnI?t=10m5s https://youtu.be/UY9P0QSxlnI?t=10m5s
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Less the 19th century. The Congress of Vienna achieved a lasting peace after the Napoleonic wars.
    - godelski 2y ago
      Sure, but still quite a lot of conflict compared to now (my point about "relative"). Levels that I think people greatly underestimate. And those first 15 years were VERY bloody. (Napoleonic Wars was 1803-1815 for those that don't know and killed between 3.5m and 7m people) But bloody European wars still include the Caucasian War, the First Carlist War (where 5% of the Spanish population died), Austro-Prussian, Franco-Prussian, the Third Carlist War, and Russo-Ottoman wars. Not to mention some very bloody revolutions: Greek, Hungarian, Italian, French (which cascaded), and so on. I think it's also important to remember that Europe in 1800 had about 195 million people and rose to a bit over 400 million by the end of the century. Which should significantly influence how one thinks about the causality levels when considering today's >740 million. Not to mention all the conflicts outside of Europe (many including European powers). The Dungan "Revolt" and Miao Rebellion were some of the bloodiest conflicts in human history. It was an especially bloody century for China. I'm not sure I'd say that Congress of Vienna achieved lasting peace and I think we both know that either side of that argument can be argued. Especially on the distinction of how you consider peace (people killing one another or conflicts between nations?) and locality (conflicts between European powers on European soil or conflicts involving European powers outside Europe?). Either way, the body count is very high. Independently, the Napoleonic Wars, (and outside Europe) Red Turban Rebellion, Mfecane, Miao Rebellion, Dungan Revolt, and Taping Rebellion have higher death tolls than all of the global conflicts since 2000[0]. These numbers aren't even normalized to population change[1]. So while maybe not as bloody (in Europe) as the 18th century, I'd still claim it was extremely bloody in the relative sense (which was my point) [0] https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace?insight=conflict-deaths-have-declined-it-is-on-us-that-this-trend-continues#key-insights https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace?insight=conflict-de... [1] Recognizing that world populations were 1bn in 1800, 1.2bn in 1850, 1.6bn in 1900, 6.1bn in 2000, and 8bn today. This represents a monumential shift and should significantly affect how one interprets casualty numbers. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populat...
- ethbr1 2y ago
  > It's sometimes forgotten that 13th century humans were the same as us. Ceiling is probably closer than median. One of the crowning achievements of the modern area has been to more broadly extend knowledge and prosperity (both globally and within countries). We still have a looong way to go, but it's important not to forget what 'median education' looked like in the 1200s.
marginalia_nu 2y ago
> so many things in it feel so incredibly familiar I get this reading a lot of old texts. "De natura deorum" in particular struck me as downright uncanny. I've seen this exact discussion play out time and time again in discussion boards in the early 2000s. The only thing that's a bit off is that the tone is civil and level-headed. Like the thing is 2000 years old, how long have we been having these arguments?

SoftTalker 2y ago

> it was written near a millennia ago now, yet so many things in it feel so incredibly familiar It's sometimes forgotten that 13th century humans were the same as us.

dieselgate 2y ago
Pretty crazy how that’s not even 1k years ago. Humans have been the same for like, at least dozens of thousands of years? Maybe even more?
- temp0826 2y ago
  Homo sapiens (with the exact hardware that we carry today) emerged ~300k years ago. Wikipedia says- "Humans began exhibiting behavioral modernity about 160,000–70,000 years ago, and possibly earlier."
  - datameta 2y ago
    I think modern hardware would be more like 200k, no? I believe 300k is robust/archaic Homo sapiens.
godelski 2y ago
It's often forgotten how much conflict there was in Europe (and most of the world) in the 18th and 19th centuries. How this was fairly "normal" It's really forgotten how relatively peaceful our time is. I'm not complaining, in fact, I want to protect it. And that means we can't forget what was. https://youtu.be/UY9P0QSxlnI?t=10m5s https://youtu.be/UY9P0QSxlnI?t=10m5s
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Less the 19th century. The Congress of Vienna achieved a lasting peace after the Napoleonic wars.
  - godelski 2y ago
    Sure, but still quite a lot of conflict compared to now (my point about "relative"). Levels that I think people greatly underestimate. And those first 15 years were VERY bloody. (Napoleonic Wars was 1803-1815 for those that don't know and killed between 3.5m and 7m people) But bloody European wars still include the Caucasian War, the First Carlist War (where 5% of the Spanish population died), Austro-Prussian, Franco-Prussian, the Third Carlist War, and Russo-Ottoman wars. Not to mention some very bloody revolutions: Greek, Hungarian, Italian, French (which cascaded), and so on. I think it's also important to remember that Europe in 1800 had about 195 million people and rose to a bit over 400 million by the end of the century. Which should significantly influence how one thinks about the causality levels when considering today's >740 million. Not to mention all the conflicts outside of Europe (many including European powers). The Dungan "Revolt" and Miao Rebellion were some of the bloodiest conflicts in human history. It was an especially bloody century for China. I'm not sure I'd say that Congress of Vienna achieved lasting peace and I think we both know that either side of that argument can be argued. Especially on the distinction of how you consider peace (people killing one another or conflicts between nations?) and locality (conflicts between European powers on European soil or conflicts involving European powers outside Europe?). Either way, the body count is very high. Independently, the Napoleonic Wars, (and outside Europe) Red Turban Rebellion, Mfecane, Miao Rebellion, Dungan Revolt, and Taping Rebellion have higher death tolls than all of the global conflicts since 2000[0]. These numbers aren't even normalized to population change[1]. So while maybe not as bloody (in Europe) as the 18th century, I'd still claim it was extremely bloody in the relative sense (which was my point) [0] https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace?insight=conflict-deaths-have-declined-it-is-on-us-that-this-trend-continues#key-insights https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace?insight=conflict-de... [1] Recognizing that world populations were 1bn in 1800, 1.2bn in 1850, 1.6bn in 1900, 6.1bn in 2000, and 8bn today. This represents a monumential shift and should significantly affect how one interprets casualty numbers. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/ https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populat...
ethbr1 2y ago
> It's sometimes forgotten that 13th century humans were the same as us. Ceiling is probably closer than median. One of the crowning achievements of the modern area has been to more broadly extend knowledge and prosperity (both globally and within countries). We still have a looong way to go, but it's important not to forget what 'median education' looked like in the 1200s.

marginalia_nu 2y ago

> so many things in it feel so incredibly familiar I get this reading a lot of old texts. "De natura deorum" in particular struck me as downright uncanny. I've seen this exact discussion play out time and time again in discussion boards in the early 2000s. The only thing that's a bit off is that the tone is civil and level-headed. Like the thing is 2000 years old, how long have we been having these arguments?