5 ms·

The Google Pay app is dead

59 points by curt15 2y ago

Dalewyn 2y ago
[flagged]
jqpabc123 2y ago
Banking apps are working to take control of instant P2P payments through the new FedNow service. The idea is that this will eventually become a standard feature of most US checking accounts --- just like a debit card. No 3rd parties or their added fees required. https://explore.fednow.org https://explore.fednow.org
- stuaxo 2y ago
  This is how bank accounts in the rest of the world have worked forever.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - heftig 2y ago
    No, they haven't. "Instant Payments"/"Instant Credit Transfers" are specifically transfers completed in seconds. Banks usually charge more for this service than for regular transfers, which complete on the next business day. IIRC, in Europe, instant transfers were introduced around 2018.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      The EU recently mandated instant SEPA transfers be free. UPI (India) and PIX (Brazil) have similarly very low cost instant transfers. There are ~54 instant payment systems globally as of this comment. https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/ https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/ looks like it'll eventually track this, but is sparse at the moment. https://www.pymnts.com/tracker/real-time-payments-world-map-global-transactions/ https://www.pymnts.com/tracker/real-time-payments-world-map-... has more info if you're willing to register, which is annoying. You're just pushing iso 20022 messages around for most of these systems to transfer value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_20022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_20022
      - kwhitefoot 2y ago
        And in Scandinavia we have Vipps that lets you send money to a person knowing only their mobile number.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Since when is a phone number a form of bank identity?
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        The term of art is an alias or proxy identifier, and you specify it in your banking app (which should have strong identity controls around it; also, a confirmation email or SMS OTP is sent). At least with Zelle, when you add a new contact to make instant payments from an email address or phone number, the app will surface the first name of the deposit account owner so you can confirm the person you're sending funds to is who you intend to send funds to. Passing around long account numbers for funds transfers is poor UX. Consider Venmo is a photo of someone and their Venmo handle, similar with TransferWise. https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Proxy_Identifiers_Final.pdf https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/2021-...
        Sharparam 2y ago
        Vipps is for Norway, not Scandinavia. Sweden uses Swish for similar functionality. I'm not sure what Denmark uses.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://www.atlar.com/guides/bank-payments-in-denmark https://www.atlar.com/guides/bank-payments-in-denmark > Danes have been making use of instant account-to-account transfers since the launch of Express Clearing (‘Straksclearing’) in 2014. Today, the mobile payment app MobilePay is used by almost everyone for instant peer-to-peer transfers. Traditional payment types such as direct debits are still widely used, however. Having been around for several decades, the direct debit schemes 'Betalingsservice' and 'Leverandørservice' are used by consumers and businesses respectively. > All retail bank payments in Denmark are settled in the Kronos2 system, owned by the country's central bank, Danmarks Nationalbank, and cleared in one of three systems: Sum Clearing (‘Sumclearing’), Intraday Clearing (‘Intradagclearing’), and Express Clearing (‘Straksclearing’). These three systems dictate the settlement capabilities of the main schemes and payment methods available in Denmark.
    - kwhitefoot 2y ago
      No charge for instant payments in my bank in Norway (SBanken/DNB)
    - SXX 2y ago
      In UK Faster Payments available in most banks since 2011.
    - jksflkjl3jk3 2y ago
      When I lived in Germany in 2009 paying for gym memberships or rent was all done with instant transfers.
- hiatus 2y ago
  Will this integration have the same limits as Zelle? I tried to send my mother some money but Zelle said I was only allowed to send $1,000 and that I "may" be able to send more in the future after more payments to that contact. A wire has no such limitation and can be practically "instant" with same-day settlement if you send it early enough.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Max value transfer for the system is currently $500k, although most institutions are starting at $100k. To move value is $0.045, to request payment is $0.01 (charged to the institution plugged into the rails, not necessarily the financial services customer). https://www.frbservices.org/news/press-releases/012722-fednow-pricing-announcement https://www.frbservices.org/news/press-releases/012722-fedno...
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    That is your bank’s policies with Zelle. For whatever reason, it seems your bank does not trust you yet. For example, these are BoA’s limits: https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-limits/ https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - hiatus 2y ago
      I think it was less of the bank not trusting me and more not trusting my mother, as she had just set up her account for Zelle that day. Either way, there are not this many security gates when writing a check, and it's insulting to deny me access to send my own money as I see fit. If it was about trusting me they would not have let me send the wire (which is the same as Zelle when it comes to inability to claw back money).
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Usually the bank charges a wire transfer fee, which may cover the risk premium. Also, the government recently required banks to recover Zelle transfers. I imagine this costs banks money? https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/payments-app-zelle-begins-refunds-imposter-scams-after-washington-pressure-2023-11-13/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/payments-ap... > Lenders on Zelle are also now required to implement a tool that flags transfers with risky attributes, such as a payment to an account that has never transacted on the Zelle network, said Chance. He said Zelle has seen "a step-change reduction" in fraud and scam rates this year but declined to provide details.
- dddw 2y ago
  My bank however is opting out of paying with their app at terminals in favor of Google wallet...
- RDaneel0livaw 2y ago
  It says JP Morgan Chase is on the list of providers, but in my online chase.com dashboard, I have zero reference to this service, nor can I find any way to use it. All I see is the ancient dinosaur bill pay service, the ancient dinosaur wire service, the hideously expensive ach service, and then zelle. Some places accept zelle, some don't. Some people accept zelle, some don't. Which makes it impossible to use. All those services suck. So what that means in real life, is just that everyone uses venmo and nothing else. Which I dislike greatly, but am forced to use. I REALLY wish I could use this FedNow service, but I simply can't figure out HOW to do so.
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    I REALLY wish I could use this FedNow service, but I simply can't figure out HOW to do so. The FedNow service just went live in July of last year. Banks are still working to implement and test the new protocols and build it into their customer apps but it should be coming "real soon". https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/fednow-is-finally-live-in-the-us/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/fednow-is-finally-live-in-...
  - skybrian 2y ago
    You might be surprised how much this varies. I don’t know anyone who uses Venmo and never needed it. I do use Zelle in a few cases when a credit card doesn’t work. It beats checks but is still rather annoying because sometimes Zelle says “no” for mysterious reasons.
    - RDaneel0livaw 2y ago
      Zelle is so useless. I really wish it would just go away!
- daft_pink 2y ago
  Until they protect us from fraud like credit cards, I’m not interested as the banks transfer all the risk to the user on these products. Why anyone would use a debit card in the United States is beyond me.
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    Why anyone would use a debit card in the United States is beyond me. Why would anyone use Venmo with even less protection? But millions of people do.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Huh? Venmo (since being bought by PayPal) has the strongest fraud protections that exist. It's why online P2P marketplaces have huge banners saying "If they don't accept Venmo or PayPal G&S it's a scammer." Venmo/PayPal are unique in that they'll insure an informal purchase agreement between two people neither of which have a merchant agreement with them.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        I've heard so many stories of people sending money by P2P in Venmo and having pretty much zero recourse. There's fraud protection for merchant accounts but sending cash P2P between normal user accounts there's pretty much no protections. Read up all the stories of people sending money to the wrong Venmo user and support not being any help about it.
        tlogan 2y ago
        Venmo is excellent in detecting fraudsters - people in business stealing money. However if you make a mistake and send money to a user which is some random house keeper or baby sitter then oh well…
      - jqpabc123 2y ago
        Venmo/PayPal are unique in that they'll insure an informal purchase agreement between two people neither of which have a merchant agreement with them. Would you care to test this? Venmo someone you know $50 and then try to reverse it without their consent. Let me know how it goes. Venmo makes it incredibly easy to send money to the wrong user tag.
- liveoneggs 2y ago
  zelle by any other name is just another scammer target
lxgr 2y ago
Besides the hot mess that is Google's branding and app strategy for their (not only) payment-related products that I'm sure others will comment on: I wonder what the business model was going to be here? Facilitating P2P payments in the US is anything but free, especially when done over card rails as Google Pay did, as far as I remember. Were they sponsored by one or both of the networks initially (I vaguely remember hearing something about Mastercard Send, but that could have been Meta), and were they hoping they'd grow enough to keep those terms? Were they hoping to find a business model along the way, maybe in combination with the abandoned banking project?
- ssmiler 2y ago
  Using (aka selling) transactions history is one
  - kylebenzle 2y ago
    I will never understand why people prefer to sell their private data and pay to spend their own money rather than just use cryptocurrency.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Because when I go to the grocery store they don't usually take PEPE or WinDOGE98.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Cryptocurrency gives that same data away for free, to everyone.
    - namlem 2y ago
      You still have to pay blockchain fees on crypto transactions.
4mitkumar 2y ago
Meanwhile, Google Pay has emerged as the king of UPI payments in India, with annualised transaction value worth $110 billion. Sometimes, so tightly focused US-only news without even recognising it as such amuses me. https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/12/india-stumped-on-how-to-cut-phonepe-google-dominance-in-upi-payments/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/12/india-stumped-on-how-to-cu...
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Is this down through the old Google Pay app, not through the newer Wallet app? I use "Google Pay", as in the payment processor, every day, but it is being done through the wallet app.
  - sdeer 2y ago
    It is the Google Pay app. The Google Wallet app is separate and (at least in India) do not have payment functionality. Edited to add: actually the popular app in India is GPay which I think is different from the older Google Pay. Google's payment apps are very confusing.
- zinekeller 2y ago
  Unfortunately, that's the exact problem here: Google tried to force their Indian application internationally without exactly understanding the differences between different markets (big one is forced mobile number registration, which I understand is not a big deal in India but it's a significant friction in the US). For users outside of India, it is a mess compared to how Apple (and even Samsung at this point) does it.
xnx 2y ago
Of all Google's confusing product duplications and overlapping function, "GPay" vs. "Google Pay" vs. "Google Wallet" was possibly the most confusing.
- tomkaos 2y ago
  And Android Pay, I forgot my wallet one day, decide to use Android Pay but was block with : "Android Pay is replace by Google Pay, you need to update...". The shame of not been able to pay loose ma confident to use Google for this.
Quiark 2y ago
Love how they clarify payment apps #1 and #4 have the same name.
pzo 2y ago
It's seems Google Pay was written in flutter [0]. Wondering what went so wrong and if it's another canary that they might be winding down flutter after reducing the team and all founders left the boat. [0] https://flutter.dev/showcase/google-pay https://flutter.dev/showcase/google-pay
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  Maybe. On the other hand, maybe it’s the same as them canning Stadia (whose app was also Flutter).
gabrielsroka 2y ago
This diagram is really interesting. I don't know if I'm any less confused though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay_(payment_method) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay_(payment_method)
MELEKE 2y ago
[dead]

59 points by curt15 2y ago

[flagged]

Banking apps are working to take control of instant P2P payments through the new FedNow service. The idea is that this will eventually become a standard feature of most US checking accounts --- just like a debit card. No 3rd parties or their added fees required. https://explore.fednow.org https://explore.fednow.org

stuaxo 2y ago
This is how bank accounts in the rest of the world have worked forever.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- heftig 2y ago
  No, they haven't. "Instant Payments"/"Instant Credit Transfers" are specifically transfers completed in seconds. Banks usually charge more for this service than for regular transfers, which complete on the next business day. IIRC, in Europe, instant transfers were introduced around 2018.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    The EU recently mandated instant SEPA transfers be free. UPI (India) and PIX (Brazil) have similarly very low cost instant transfers. There are ~54 instant payment systems globally as of this comment. https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/ https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/ looks like it'll eventually track this, but is sparse at the moment. https://www.pymnts.com/tracker/real-time-payments-world-map-global-transactions/ https://www.pymnts.com/tracker/real-time-payments-world-map-... has more info if you're willing to register, which is annoying. You're just pushing iso 20022 messages around for most of these systems to transfer value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_20022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_20022
    - kwhitefoot 2y ago
      And in Scandinavia we have Vipps that lets you send money to a person knowing only their mobile number.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Since when is a phone number a form of bank identity?
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        The term of art is an alias or proxy identifier, and you specify it in your banking app (which should have strong identity controls around it; also, a confirmation email or SMS OTP is sent). At least with Zelle, when you add a new contact to make instant payments from an email address or phone number, the app will surface the first name of the deposit account owner so you can confirm the person you're sending funds to is who you intend to send funds to. Passing around long account numbers for funds transfers is poor UX. Consider Venmo is a photo of someone and their Venmo handle, similar with TransferWise. https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Proxy_Identifiers_Final.pdf https://fastpayments.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/2021-...
      - Sharparam 2y ago
        Vipps is for Norway, not Scandinavia. Sweden uses Swish for similar functionality. I'm not sure what Denmark uses.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://www.atlar.com/guides/bank-payments-in-denmark https://www.atlar.com/guides/bank-payments-in-denmark > Danes have been making use of instant account-to-account transfers since the launch of Express Clearing (‘Straksclearing’) in 2014. Today, the mobile payment app MobilePay is used by almost everyone for instant peer-to-peer transfers. Traditional payment types such as direct debits are still widely used, however. Having been around for several decades, the direct debit schemes 'Betalingsservice' and 'Leverandørservice' are used by consumers and businesses respectively. > All retail bank payments in Denmark are settled in the Kronos2 system, owned by the country's central bank, Danmarks Nationalbank, and cleared in one of three systems: Sum Clearing (‘Sumclearing’), Intraday Clearing (‘Intradagclearing’), and Express Clearing (‘Straksclearing’). These three systems dictate the settlement capabilities of the main schemes and payment methods available in Denmark.
  - kwhitefoot 2y ago
    No charge for instant payments in my bank in Norway (SBanken/DNB)
  - SXX 2y ago
    In UK Faster Payments available in most banks since 2011.
  - jksflkjl3jk3 2y ago
    When I lived in Germany in 2009 paying for gym memberships or rent was all done with instant transfers.
hiatus 2y ago
Will this integration have the same limits as Zelle? I tried to send my mother some money but Zelle said I was only allowed to send $1,000 and that I "may" be able to send more in the future after more payments to that contact. A wire has no such limitation and can be practically "instant" with same-day settlement if you send it early enough.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Max value transfer for the system is currently $500k, although most institutions are starting at $100k. To move value is $0.045, to request payment is $0.01 (charged to the institution plugged into the rails, not necessarily the financial services customer). https://www.frbservices.org/news/press-releases/012722-fednow-pricing-announcement https://www.frbservices.org/news/press-releases/012722-fedno...
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  That is your bank’s policies with Zelle. For whatever reason, it seems your bank does not trust you yet. For example, these are BoA’s limits: https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-limits/ https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/zelle-transfer-...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hiatus 2y ago
    I think it was less of the bank not trusting me and more not trusting my mother, as she had just set up her account for Zelle that day. Either way, there are not this many security gates when writing a check, and it's insulting to deny me access to send my own money as I see fit. If it was about trusting me they would not have let me send the wire (which is the same as Zelle when it comes to inability to claw back money).
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Usually the bank charges a wire transfer fee, which may cover the risk premium. Also, the government recently required banks to recover Zelle transfers. I imagine this costs banks money? https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/payments-app-zelle-begins-refunds-imposter-scams-after-washington-pressure-2023-11-13/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/payments-ap... > Lenders on Zelle are also now required to implement a tool that flags transfers with risky attributes, such as a payment to an account that has never transacted on the Zelle network, said Chance. He said Zelle has seen "a step-change reduction" in fraud and scam rates this year but declined to provide details.
dddw 2y ago
My bank however is opting out of paying with their app at terminals in favor of Google wallet...
RDaneel0livaw 2y ago
It says JP Morgan Chase is on the list of providers, but in my online chase.com dashboard, I have zero reference to this service, nor can I find any way to use it. All I see is the ancient dinosaur bill pay service, the ancient dinosaur wire service, the hideously expensive ach service, and then zelle. Some places accept zelle, some don't. Some people accept zelle, some don't. Which makes it impossible to use. All those services suck. So what that means in real life, is just that everyone uses venmo and nothing else. Which I dislike greatly, but am forced to use. I REALLY wish I could use this FedNow service, but I simply can't figure out HOW to do so.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  I REALLY wish I could use this FedNow service, but I simply can't figure out HOW to do so. The FedNow service just went live in July of last year. Banks are still working to implement and test the new protocols and build it into their customer apps but it should be coming "real soon". https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/fednow-is-finally-live-in-the-us/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/fednow-is-finally-live-in-...
- skybrian 2y ago
  You might be surprised how much this varies. I don’t know anyone who uses Venmo and never needed it. I do use Zelle in a few cases when a credit card doesn’t work. It beats checks but is still rather annoying because sometimes Zelle says “no” for mysterious reasons.
  - RDaneel0livaw 2y ago
    Zelle is so useless. I really wish it would just go away!
daft_pink 2y ago
Until they protect us from fraud like credit cards, I’m not interested as the banks transfer all the risk to the user on these products. Why anyone would use a debit card in the United States is beyond me.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  Why anyone would use a debit card in the United States is beyond me. Why would anyone use Venmo with even less protection? But millions of people do.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Huh? Venmo (since being bought by PayPal) has the strongest fraud protections that exist. It's why online P2P marketplaces have huge banners saying "If they don't accept Venmo or PayPal G&S it's a scammer." Venmo/PayPal are unique in that they'll insure an informal purchase agreement between two people neither of which have a merchant agreement with them.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      I've heard so many stories of people sending money by P2P in Venmo and having pretty much zero recourse. There's fraud protection for merchant accounts but sending cash P2P between normal user accounts there's pretty much no protections. Read up all the stories of people sending money to the wrong Venmo user and support not being any help about it.
      - tlogan 2y ago
        Venmo is excellent in detecting fraudsters - people in business stealing money. However if you make a mistake and send money to a user which is some random house keeper or baby sitter then oh well…
    - jqpabc123 2y ago
      Venmo/PayPal are unique in that they'll insure an informal purchase agreement between two people neither of which have a merchant agreement with them. Would you care to test this? Venmo someone you know $50 and then try to reverse it without their consent. Let me know how it goes. Venmo makes it incredibly easy to send money to the wrong user tag.
liveoneggs 2y ago
zelle by any other name is just another scammer target

lxgr 2y ago

Besides the hot mess that is Google's branding and app strategy for their (not only) payment-related products that I'm sure others will comment on: I wonder what the business model was going to be here? Facilitating P2P payments in the US is anything but free, especially when done over card rails as Google Pay did, as far as I remember. Were they sponsored by one or both of the networks initially (I vaguely remember hearing something about Mastercard Send, but that could have been Meta), and were they hoping they'd grow enough to keep those terms? Were they hoping to find a business model along the way, maybe in combination with the abandoned banking project?

ssmiler 2y ago
Using (aka selling) transactions history is one
- kylebenzle 2y ago
  I will never understand why people prefer to sell their private data and pay to spend their own money rather than just use cryptocurrency.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Because when I go to the grocery store they don't usually take PEPE or WinDOGE98.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Cryptocurrency gives that same data away for free, to everyone.
  - namlem 2y ago
    You still have to pay blockchain fees on crypto transactions.

4mitkumar 2y ago

Meanwhile, Google Pay has emerged as the king of UPI payments in India, with annualised transaction value worth $110 billion. Sometimes, so tightly focused US-only news without even recognising it as such amuses me. https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/12/india-stumped-on-how-to-cut-phonepe-google-dominance-in-upi-payments/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/12/india-stumped-on-how-to-cu...

tsimionescu 2y ago
Is this down through the old Google Pay app, not through the newer Wallet app? I use "Google Pay", as in the payment processor, every day, but it is being done through the wallet app.
- sdeer 2y ago
  It is the Google Pay app. The Google Wallet app is separate and (at least in India) do not have payment functionality. Edited to add: actually the popular app in India is GPay which I think is different from the older Google Pay. Google's payment apps are very confusing.
zinekeller 2y ago
Unfortunately, that's the exact problem here: Google tried to force their Indian application internationally without exactly understanding the differences between different markets (big one is forced mobile number registration, which I understand is not a big deal in India but it's a significant friction in the US). For users outside of India, it is a mess compared to how Apple (and even Samsung at this point) does it.

xnx 2y ago

Of all Google's confusing product duplications and overlapping function, "GPay" vs. "Google Pay" vs. "Google Wallet" was possibly the most confusing.

tomkaos 2y ago
And Android Pay, I forgot my wallet one day, decide to use Android Pay but was block with : "Android Pay is replace by Google Pay, you need to update...". The shame of not been able to pay loose ma confident to use Google for this.

Quiark 2y ago

Love how they clarify payment apps #1 and #4 have the same name.

pzo 2y ago

It's seems Google Pay was written in flutter [0]. Wondering what went so wrong and if it's another canary that they might be winding down flutter after reducing the team and all founders left the boat. [0] https://flutter.dev/showcase/google-pay https://flutter.dev/showcase/google-pay

Apocryphon 2y ago
Maybe. On the other hand, maybe it’s the same as them canning Stadia (whose app was also Flutter).

gabrielsroka 2y ago

This diagram is really interesting. I don't know if I'm any less confused though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay_(payment_method) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay_(payment_method)

MELEKE 2y ago

[dead]