10 ms·

The Death of the Dining Room

35 points by jseliger 2y ago

manarth 2y ago
https://archive.is/9S8fa https://archive.is/9S8fa
- neonate 2y ago
  http://web.archive.org/web/20240612123210/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/06/dining-rooms-us-homes-apartments/678633/ http://web.archive.org/web/20240612123210/https://www.theatl...
black_13 2y ago
[dead]
jarbus 2y ago
It’s interesting how true this is. Definitely harder to host people now, I’ve managed to get by but it’s definitely awkward to host people in my current unit, and the big thing I’m excited about when I move is the ability to host a group of people for a meal
- epolanski 2y ago
  So was I, realistically happened a handful of times in many years.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Yeah I remember my parents hosting a few dinner parties when I was young, but after I was maybe 8 or 10 years old they just stopped. It is a lot of work and I don't think many of the guests ever reciprocated.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      In my case absolutely none bar family reciprocated. Tons of work, before and after, expensive. I think that between families getting smaller, a tendency to spend much less time socializing in general, and economic conditions making it cost effective to just take people out rather than cooking for them it's not worth it. Even my family in the south of Italy were gathering 20/30 people together was common is now limited both in frequency and attendance (few generations that didn't have 3/4 but 1/2 people each shrunk the party considerably).
xs83 2y ago
Perhaps its because the average house (e.g. the Simpsons house) is no longer achievable for the majority of young people, smaller footprints mean things have to become multipurpose.
- spicyusername 2y ago
  Looking at the trends for home size, it seems like those size homes, 2000sqft+, only started getting built relatively recently, so it's not as if they're some kind of human right. How did people host before 1990, I wonder? How do people host in Europe, where the average home size is still relatively modest?
  - xboxnolifes 2y ago
    Smaller bedrooms, smaller kitchens, smaller every room. My grandparents' house's rooms were small in every direction, but the entire house still fit a dining room with room for 8 (snuggly), family room, living room, kitchin, bathroom, and multiple bedrooms.
    - naltroc 2y ago
      (united states family, born and raised) I don't understand the desire for a large bedroom. My parents use the largest "bedroom" in their house to hold their bed. I use the smallest "bedroom" in my house to hold my bed, because all I do in there is sleep. The larger "bedrooms" become office and studio spaces, since I spend remarkably more waking hours in these locations compared to where I sleep.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        > I spend remarkably more waking hours in these locations compared to where I sleep. That's good. For sleep health, your sleeping room should ideally be used only for sleeping. Don't work, read, watch TV, etc. in that room. If you work from home or need an office or studio, that should be a separate room if at all possible.
  - 2y ago
krunck 2y ago
Our family and everybody around us (all middle-aged and living in a mid to low income neighborhood) have a dining space with a table that they use for most meals. Yeah, if you're single and renting a small apartment there is no need. But if you are raising kids you need to have a space where you can share food, share ideas, and connect at least once a day.
- epolanski 2y ago
  In Europe we have just huge kitchens for that, or living rooms that double as dining ones. Unless your house is very very small and you're inviting a dozen people may not work (hell, neither a classical dining room may though). But for what you describe, I don't see an issue.
MarkusWandel 2y ago
In my house (1970 vintage) the dining room, while small (has room for the standard hutch plus drop leaf dining table, and not much else) is still a vestigial formal room. Has the front window, has direct access from the front door/hall. Food preparation could be kept isolated from guests, as was once the fashion. Current fashion is everyone hangs around in the kitchen while the final food prep is done, and only then migrates to the dining room to eat. Which is nice and informal, and totally OK for the post-servant era. So does it matter if the dining table is in an open concept setting with the kitchen, or separated by walls and a door? It functions the same either way. Much more bizarre is the "vestigial living room" - barely enough room for a sofa - still exists but its minuscule size admits that the real living room is now the rear-facing family room. To be clear, my house still has the full (front facing) living room, with the fireplace and all. But I've seen the tiny vestigial living rooms in more modern houses.
nicole_express 2y ago
It's interesting; growing up we had a 'great room' type large room setup, and we artificially divided it into a dining room and living room with furniture because doing without a dining room for holidays and guests was unthinkable, even if we didn't use it in every day dinners. I guess the current owners of that house probably just enjoy the large room.
pfdietz 2y ago
We own two grandfather clocks. They sit in corners of the dining room, which isn't much used. Of course they aren't being used as clocks, as they're completely obsolete for that purpose. People complain about modern disposable objects, but they do solve the problem of antiques encumbering ones life. It would be useful to go through ones life periodically and decide what's become a burden and should be discarded.
crispyambulance 2y ago
Kitchens, I believe, are larger than they used to be. Often with islands that have high chairs and/or a separate large table. Old-time kitchens tended to be cramped. I lost track of the number of old-house renovations friends did which involved knocking out a kitchen wall and effectively merging the dining room and kitchen into one "open plan". New construction basically already does that!
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  An old style "galley" kitchen is actually more efficient as a kitchen, but it's not popular because it isn't very good as a social space and doesn't tend to have a lot of storage space for all the gadgets people have in their kitchens now.
  - trgn 2y ago
    galley kitchens are awesome, super practical, keep mess out of sight.
- elric 2y ago
  I don't like the current trend of kitchen/living room hybrids. Open kitchens are pretty bad for indoor air quality and reduce the effect of insulation. The former is especially problematic for those with gas stoves. Moreso when combined with recirculating filtering extractor fans instead of the ones that vent the polluted air outside. A smallish kitchen with a door and a good fan keeps the rest of house warm in winter, and keeps pollutants out of the house.
  - ErikCorry 2y ago
    You pretty much explained how to fix this though. A good extractor and an induction stove. The heating issues are manageable even with an extractor fan. Nobody wants to be hidden away in a small kitchen these days. So lonely, and completely impractical if you have small kids you need to keep an eye on at the same time.
    - 2y ago
astrodust 2y ago
Restaurants used to be prohibitively expensive, and rent was cheap. Now it's the opposite.
- sombrero_john 2y ago
  Restaurants are more expensive than ever.
  - trgn 2y ago
    Weird, people eat out more than ever too.
    - thisgoesnowhere 2y ago
      Restaurants solve the problem of lack of time not absence of food.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - harperlee 2y ago
      If rent is "more expensive than ever"er, then the math checks out.
AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
Can confirm. The single-family town-home I just bought (built in 1997) has no dining room. Our dining table will be in a corner of the kitchen, what used to be called the breakfast nook. We'll be able to comfortably seat about six, but, lord help us if we ever decide we need to squeeze in a buffet or a hutch! What use do millennials have for fancy china, anyway?
dkarl 2y ago
I definitely feel both ways about this. When I have a couple of close friends over, I like them to have a place to sit and chat that feels connected to the kitchen. I'm happy to chat and drink with them while I chop vegetables and attend to a pan, and I don't feel too self-conscious about saying "oops, give me a sec" if cooking demands 100% of my attention for a minute or two. And my friends know better than to try to help me with cleanup (though they're welcome to chop.) When I'm hosting more people, or people I don't know well, I don't want them anywhere near the kitchen. Especially when there are a lot of guests and the kitchen starts to resemble a triage area at a mass casualty event, and when you have to fend off well-meaning people who try to wash the dishes or something else that they don't realize is extremely unhelpful. I need to be on in the kitchen, not sociable. It's work. The kitchen is just for me, my wife, and in extreme cases, close friends who know us well enough to be actually helpful by taking things to the table and replenishing drinks. The latter situation is much rarer than the former, so I'm glad we have an open kitchen, but I really feel how much better it would be to have a separate room for hosting big events. I've heard it suggested that the ideal solution would be a closed-off kitchen where you keep all the mess, the simmering pots, the dirty dishes, and the sweat and swearing, and a second open kitchen where you can smile and do the impressive and/or photogenic cooking in front of your guests to show how effortless and organized you are in the kitchen. EDIT/PS: Space issues are beside the point, IMO — many people living in small spaces have a "dining room" or at least a "dinner table" that is busy with other things the rest of the day (mail, homework, laundry, etc.) and only gets dedicated to meals at mealtime. It's only empty all day if you have a surplus of space.
- allannienhuis 2y ago
  These secondary kitchens are called 'spice kitchens', more common in multi-generational households that do a lot of batch/bulk cooking.
- grotorea 2y ago
  I saw a youtube video once about mansions calling that closed-off kitchen the "chef's kitchen".
- pjlegato 2y ago
BenFranklin100 2y ago
Another factor may be the decline in popularity of hosting dinner parties in blue cities. It’s nearly impossible to host a dinner for many people due to all the dietary restrictions. Years ago, you might have had a vegetarian or two, but now we gluten intolerance, vegans, and people in general are far more vocal about dietary restrictions. A potluck is the best one can hope for when hosting a party for those under the age of 40.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  I think you mean since women started working outside the home?
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    No I did not.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  You aren't trying hard enough. One of my mother's friends has severe dietary restrictions due to health issues. They make it work.
  - barbazoo 2y ago
    I think it also speaks to one's mindset when they talk about people that way. If I invite someone for a meal I want to know what their preferences but especially what their food allergies and intolerances are so I can make something they'll be able to eat and enjoy. I don't eat meat (I must be a "blue" household then according to parent) so I just eat whatever is there that doesn't have meat in it but if people know I'm a vegetarian and make a meat alternative that's great but not necessary. I'm not making a fuss about it but then again I'm not very confrontational, just isn't worth it. Parent is probably different and seems to know people who aren't like that.
    - BenFranklin100 2y ago
      I am a very bad person, yes.
cowsup 2y ago
I’m surprised they didn’t touch on the Internet as a factor. Before, dinner parties were the best way for friends to catch up and talk, and fill one another in on their lives. Everybody would gather around for hours, and talk about new things going on in their careers, their children, other friends, news, sports, you name it. Nowadays, you can just hop onto your group chat(s) and fill everyone in on these things in real time. So, the dinner party became less of a necessity for social interaction; and the actual dinner itself was never the point. With less of a need to hang around for hours on end to catch up, it’s become more efficient to just go to a restaurant, spend an hour or so, and then leave. Nobody is left to clean up, or spend half the day preparing meals.

35 points by jseliger 2y ago

manarth 2y ago

https://archive.is/9S8fa https://archive.is/9S8fa

neonate 2y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20240612123210/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/06/dining-rooms-us-homes-apartments/678633/ http://web.archive.org/web/20240612123210/https://www.theatl...

black_13 2y ago

[dead]

jarbus 2y ago

It’s interesting how true this is. Definitely harder to host people now, I’ve managed to get by but it’s definitely awkward to host people in my current unit, and the big thing I’m excited about when I move is the ability to host a group of people for a meal

epolanski 2y ago
So was I, realistically happened a handful of times in many years.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Yeah I remember my parents hosting a few dinner parties when I was young, but after I was maybe 8 or 10 years old they just stopped. It is a lot of work and I don't think many of the guests ever reciprocated.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    In my case absolutely none bar family reciprocated. Tons of work, before and after, expensive. I think that between families getting smaller, a tendency to spend much less time socializing in general, and economic conditions making it cost effective to just take people out rather than cooking for them it's not worth it. Even my family in the south of Italy were gathering 20/30 people together was common is now limited both in frequency and attendance (few generations that didn't have 3/4 but 1/2 people each shrunk the party considerably).

xs83 2y ago

Perhaps its because the average house (e.g. the Simpsons house) is no longer achievable for the majority of young people, smaller footprints mean things have to become multipurpose.

spicyusername 2y ago
Looking at the trends for home size, it seems like those size homes, 2000sqft+, only started getting built relatively recently, so it's not as if they're some kind of human right. How did people host before 1990, I wonder? How do people host in Europe, where the average home size is still relatively modest?
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  Smaller bedrooms, smaller kitchens, smaller every room. My grandparents' house's rooms were small in every direction, but the entire house still fit a dining room with room for 8 (snuggly), family room, living room, kitchin, bathroom, and multiple bedrooms.
  - naltroc 2y ago
    (united states family, born and raised) I don't understand the desire for a large bedroom. My parents use the largest "bedroom" in their house to hold their bed. I use the smallest "bedroom" in my house to hold my bed, because all I do in there is sleep. The larger "bedrooms" become office and studio spaces, since I spend remarkably more waking hours in these locations compared to where I sleep.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      > I spend remarkably more waking hours in these locations compared to where I sleep. That's good. For sleep health, your sleeping room should ideally be used only for sleeping. Don't work, read, watch TV, etc. in that room. If you work from home or need an office or studio, that should be a separate room if at all possible.
- 2y ago

krunck 2y ago

Our family and everybody around us (all middle-aged and living in a mid to low income neighborhood) have a dining space with a table that they use for most meals. Yeah, if you're single and renting a small apartment there is no need. But if you are raising kids you need to have a space where you can share food, share ideas, and connect at least once a day.

epolanski 2y ago
In Europe we have just huge kitchens for that, or living rooms that double as dining ones. Unless your house is very very small and you're inviting a dozen people may not work (hell, neither a classical dining room may though). But for what you describe, I don't see an issue.

MarkusWandel 2y ago

In my house (1970 vintage) the dining room, while small (has room for the standard hutch plus drop leaf dining table, and not much else) is still a vestigial formal room. Has the front window, has direct access from the front door/hall. Food preparation could be kept isolated from guests, as was once the fashion. Current fashion is everyone hangs around in the kitchen while the final food prep is done, and only then migrates to the dining room to eat. Which is nice and informal, and totally OK for the post-servant era. So does it matter if the dining table is in an open concept setting with the kitchen, or separated by walls and a door? It functions the same either way. Much more bizarre is the "vestigial living room" - barely enough room for a sofa - still exists but its minuscule size admits that the real living room is now the rear-facing family room. To be clear, my house still has the full (front facing) living room, with the fireplace and all. But I've seen the tiny vestigial living rooms in more modern houses.

nicole_express 2y ago

It's interesting; growing up we had a 'great room' type large room setup, and we artificially divided it into a dining room and living room with furniture because doing without a dining room for holidays and guests was unthinkable, even if we didn't use it in every day dinners. I guess the current owners of that house probably just enjoy the large room.

pfdietz 2y ago

We own two grandfather clocks. They sit in corners of the dining room, which isn't much used. Of course they aren't being used as clocks, as they're completely obsolete for that purpose. People complain about modern disposable objects, but they do solve the problem of antiques encumbering ones life. It would be useful to go through ones life periodically and decide what's become a burden and should be discarded.

crispyambulance 2y ago

Kitchens, I believe, are larger than they used to be. Often with islands that have high chairs and/or a separate large table. Old-time kitchens tended to be cramped. I lost track of the number of old-house renovations friends did which involved knocking out a kitchen wall and effectively merging the dining room and kitchen into one "open plan". New construction basically already does that!

SoftTalker 2y ago
An old style "galley" kitchen is actually more efficient as a kitchen, but it's not popular because it isn't very good as a social space and doesn't tend to have a lot of storage space for all the gadgets people have in their kitchens now.
- trgn 2y ago
  galley kitchens are awesome, super practical, keep mess out of sight.
elric 2y ago
I don't like the current trend of kitchen/living room hybrids. Open kitchens are pretty bad for indoor air quality and reduce the effect of insulation. The former is especially problematic for those with gas stoves. Moreso when combined with recirculating filtering extractor fans instead of the ones that vent the polluted air outside. A smallish kitchen with a door and a good fan keeps the rest of house warm in winter, and keeps pollutants out of the house.
- ErikCorry 2y ago
  You pretty much explained how to fix this though. A good extractor and an induction stove. The heating issues are manageable even with an extractor fan. Nobody wants to be hidden away in a small kitchen these days. So lonely, and completely impractical if you have small kids you need to keep an eye on at the same time.
  - 2y ago

astrodust 2y ago

Restaurants used to be prohibitively expensive, and rent was cheap. Now it's the opposite.

sombrero_john 2y ago
Restaurants are more expensive than ever.
- trgn 2y ago
  Weird, people eat out more than ever too.
  - thisgoesnowhere 2y ago
    Restaurants solve the problem of lack of time not absence of food.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - harperlee 2y ago
    If rent is "more expensive than ever"er, then the math checks out.

AdmiralAsshat 2y ago

Can confirm. The single-family town-home I just bought (built in 1997) has no dining room. Our dining table will be in a corner of the kitchen, what used to be called the breakfast nook. We'll be able to comfortably seat about six, but, lord help us if we ever decide we need to squeeze in a buffet or a hutch! What use do millennials have for fancy china, anyway?

dkarl 2y ago

I definitely feel both ways about this. When I have a couple of close friends over, I like them to have a place to sit and chat that feels connected to the kitchen. I'm happy to chat and drink with them while I chop vegetables and attend to a pan, and I don't feel too self-conscious about saying "oops, give me a sec" if cooking demands 100% of my attention for a minute or two. And my friends know better than to try to help me with cleanup (though they're welcome to chop.) When I'm hosting more people, or people I don't know well, I don't want them anywhere near the kitchen. Especially when there are a lot of guests and the kitchen starts to resemble a triage area at a mass casualty event, and when you have to fend off well-meaning people who try to wash the dishes or something else that they don't realize is extremely unhelpful. I need to be on in the kitchen, not sociable. It's work. The kitchen is just for me, my wife, and in extreme cases, close friends who know us well enough to be actually helpful by taking things to the table and replenishing drinks. The latter situation is much rarer than the former, so I'm glad we have an open kitchen, but I really feel how much better it would be to have a separate room for hosting big events. I've heard it suggested that the ideal solution would be a closed-off kitchen where you keep all the mess, the simmering pots, the dirty dishes, and the sweat and swearing, and a second open kitchen where you can smile and do the impressive and/or photogenic cooking in front of your guests to show how effortless and organized you are in the kitchen. EDIT/PS: Space issues are beside the point, IMO — many people living in small spaces have a "dining room" or at least a "dinner table" that is busy with other things the rest of the day (mail, homework, laundry, etc.) and only gets dedicated to meals at mealtime. It's only empty all day if you have a surplus of space.

allannienhuis 2y ago
These secondary kitchens are called 'spice kitchens', more common in multi-generational households that do a lot of batch/bulk cooking.
grotorea 2y ago
I saw a youtube video once about mansions calling that closed-off kitchen the "chef's kitchen".
pjlegato 2y ago

BenFranklin100 2y ago

Another factor may be the decline in popularity of hosting dinner parties in blue cities. It’s nearly impossible to host a dinner for many people due to all the dietary restrictions. Years ago, you might have had a vegetarian or two, but now we gluten intolerance, vegans, and people in general are far more vocal about dietary restrictions. A potluck is the best one can hope for when hosting a party for those under the age of 40.

readthenotes1 2y ago
I think you mean since women started working outside the home?
- BenFranklin100 2y ago
  No I did not.
NewJazz 2y ago
You aren't trying hard enough. One of my mother's friends has severe dietary restrictions due to health issues. They make it work.
- barbazoo 2y ago
  I think it also speaks to one's mindset when they talk about people that way. If I invite someone for a meal I want to know what their preferences but especially what their food allergies and intolerances are so I can make something they'll be able to eat and enjoy. I don't eat meat (I must be a "blue" household then according to parent) so I just eat whatever is there that doesn't have meat in it but if people know I'm a vegetarian and make a meat alternative that's great but not necessary. I'm not making a fuss about it but then again I'm not very confrontational, just isn't worth it. Parent is probably different and seems to know people who aren't like that.
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    I am a very bad person, yes.

cowsup 2y ago

I’m surprised they didn’t touch on the Internet as a factor. Before, dinner parties were the best way for friends to catch up and talk, and fill one another in on their lives. Everybody would gather around for hours, and talk about new things going on in their careers, their children, other friends, news, sports, you name it. Nowadays, you can just hop onto your group chat(s) and fill everyone in on these things in real time. So, the dinner party became less of a necessity for social interaction; and the actual dinner itself was never the point. With less of a need to hang around for hours on end to catch up, it’s become more efficient to just go to a restaurant, spend an hour or so, and then leave. Nobody is left to clean up, or spend half the day preparing meals.