5 ms·

You're also putting Europe on a pedestal. In many urban areas (where the majority of the population lives) it's no longer safe for kids to walk + bike to school

You're also putting Europe on a pedestal. In many urban areas (where the majority of the population lives) it's no longer safe for kids to walk + bike to school freely. Not necessarily because of cars but significant crime.

jasonfarnon 2y ago
Is it no longer safe there? Because in the states parents have been restricting kids a lot more severely just as crime in cities plummeted (mid 90s--present). So I imagine it's either perceptions about safety, or parents just being more careful.
- immibis 2y ago
  It isn't no longer safe for kids to walk to school. What happened is that American internet arrived here, and it has political reasons to want everyone to think it is.
  - wincy 2y ago
    I walked to the gas station with my dog and two kids, and had a guy yell at me that my kids were going to get kidnapped while I went inside for 5 minutes to buy us some waters and snacks. The biggest hurdle for us letting our children be free range and able to do things on their own has definitely been paranoid parents and busybodies who watched Sound of Freedom and think that every girl is going to immediately get sex trafficked to Guatemalan drug lords (or whatever, I didn't watch the movie) if she leaves her parent's sight for a second.
  - eru 2y ago
    Wait, are you saying American internet it telling people that it's safe, or that it's unsafe?
    - immibis 2y ago
      American internet wants you to think you can only be safe in a car, with a gun, around other white cis people.
      - eru 2y ago
        Interesting perspective. As far as I can tell, American Internet mostly wants you to think that their own culture war is important and relevant universally, including for you. And that their own particular division of issues between their political poles is also somehow universal and important; and that you should get riled up about it.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Europe is a big place, it varies widely.
bedobi 2y ago
guess what kills the most children, criminals or cars?
- ksplicer 2y ago
  Exactly, what the hell is "not necessarily because of cars" supposed to mean? Or maybe it's a comment on how, despite cars being way more dangerous, parents over-focus on crime?
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  At a certain maturity, kids have developed mentally enough for cars to not be a threat to them. Criminals are a whole different problem.
  - bedobi 2y ago
    Right, no teenagers or adults die by cars, for they have developed mentally enough for cars not to be a threat to them …Except the 40 000 who do die by car, every single year, in the US alone. Countless more injured and permanently disabled. Meanwhile criminals are indeed a whole different problem. (an imaginary one)
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - Moldoteck 2y ago
        Your point was car's are no longer a problem once kids grow up which is a total bs. If you wanted to say something else, it's your fault you didn't comvey your thoughts in a proper way
        carlosjobim 2y ago
        I'm not going to do your thinking for you. If you don't understand that after a certain age, cars are no more a threat to children than they are to adults – then I don't expect you to understand why and how criminals are a threat to people around them.
throwaway2037 2y ago
> Not necessarily because of cars but significant crime. I love these HN comments -- so incredibly vague. Can you be more specific about which cities? I find it hard to believe. Crime has fallen like a stone in the last 30 years in highly developed countries and their biggest cities.
- vidarh 2y ago
  There is however an impression in fairly substantial parts of society that it's gotten worse, and that impression might well have a greater effect than the actual rate on some people's behaviours.
  - newswasboring 2y ago
    Can you find a source for this claim for European countries? I personally can't but maybe my scholar foo is bad.
    - vidarh 2y ago
      For which claim? That people have an impression that things have gotten worse? You look at our recent European elections and how much of the campaigning was on law and order and the perception of the collapse of society.
      - newswasboring 2y ago
        Now you are moving the goal post. And if you ask me, those are just masks for inner racism about immigrants stealing their jerbs. I live in Europe and I don't see this being a big consideration. So if I'm not hearing it from my fellows then I would need at least a survey to believe this. I've seen those surveys for US.
        vidarh 2y ago
        No, I have not moved any goalposts. I explicitly made the point that the impression is common, despite the actual numbers not supporting it. That was the entire point of my comment. I don't know what you thought you read. And I agree it's usually about racism. If you live in Europe, just look at the EU Parliament elections and see how the far right did. Or follow the political discourse in pretty much any European country. If you're not hearing it, your not paying attention to pretty much any political reporting.
koyote 2y ago
Please don't throw wild vague claims around without substantiating with data/sources. Crime has decreased pretty much everywhere over the last three decades. I am sure there are pockets in the world where it hasn't, but those would be the exception. [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-western-europe?time=1990..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-wes...]
piva00 2y ago
Please, share your sources and what cities you are talking about. I live in Europe and I see groups of kids hanging out by themselves all the time in many, many major cities across the continent.
pantalaimon 2y ago
I’m now curious where those urban areas are where crime is so significant, kids no longer can walk to school. (And what kind of crime? We don’t really have lots of drive-by-shootings here, kids aren’t exactly a prime target for robberies either)
ponector 2y ago
Sounds like a false claim. Robbery of children? Human trafficking? What exactly are you talking? I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  > I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters. How many deaths have they caused? How do those stats compare to the deaths caused by motor vehicles? Which one is more dangerous based on that data? I have looked at local pedestrian casualty statistics and motor vehicles are by far the largest cause of injury and death in the large city where I live. I haven't even been able to find what was the last time that a cyclist or e-scooter rider killed a pedestrian. Meanwhile, cars and trucks have killed four cyclists this year alone.
- bedobi 2y ago
  > electric scooters this is bullshit, cars kill and injure orders of magnitude more people in Europe than scooters do. That's not to say there's 0 issues with scooters, because there are, but focus should remain on cars, not scooters.
GJim 2y ago
> but significant crime The crime that has been *falling* throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ?
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >The crime that has been falling throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ? crime=/=crime The park were we hung out as kids is now inhabited by drug dealers. Obviously no place for kids, or families or basically anyone else, I will try to avoid if I reasonably can. And of course there was no increase in statistical crime, as it just is not getting prosecuted, although it is clear as day that it is happening. Crime stats are hugely misleading if you want to figure out what a social environment looks like.

jasonfarnon 2y ago

Is it no longer safe there? Because in the states parents have been restricting kids a lot more severely just as crime in cities plummeted (mid 90s--present). So I imagine it's either perceptions about safety, or parents just being more careful.

immibis 2y ago
It isn't no longer safe for kids to walk to school. What happened is that American internet arrived here, and it has political reasons to want everyone to think it is.
- wincy 2y ago
  I walked to the gas station with my dog and two kids, and had a guy yell at me that my kids were going to get kidnapped while I went inside for 5 minutes to buy us some waters and snacks. The biggest hurdle for us letting our children be free range and able to do things on their own has definitely been paranoid parents and busybodies who watched Sound of Freedom and think that every girl is going to immediately get sex trafficked to Guatemalan drug lords (or whatever, I didn't watch the movie) if she leaves her parent's sight for a second.
- eru 2y ago
  Wait, are you saying American internet it telling people that it's safe, or that it's unsafe?
  - immibis 2y ago
    American internet wants you to think you can only be safe in a car, with a gun, around other white cis people.
    - eru 2y ago
      Interesting perspective. As far as I can tell, American Internet mostly wants you to think that their own culture war is important and relevant universally, including for you. And that their own particular division of issues between their political poles is also somehow universal and important; and that you should get riled up about it.
CalRobert 2y ago
Europe is a big place, it varies widely.

bedobi 2y ago

guess what kills the most children, criminals or cars?

ksplicer 2y ago
Exactly, what the hell is "not necessarily because of cars" supposed to mean? Or maybe it's a comment on how, despite cars being way more dangerous, parents over-focus on crime?
carlosjobim 2y ago
At a certain maturity, kids have developed mentally enough for cars to not be a threat to them. Criminals are a whole different problem.
- bedobi 2y ago
  Right, no teenagers or adults die by cars, for they have developed mentally enough for cars not to be a threat to them …Except the 40 000 who do die by car, every single year, in the US alone. Countless more injured and permanently disabled. Meanwhile criminals are indeed a whole different problem. (an imaginary one)
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Moldoteck 2y ago
      Your point was car's are no longer a problem once kids grow up which is a total bs. If you wanted to say something else, it's your fault you didn't comvey your thoughts in a proper way
      - carlosjobim 2y ago
        I'm not going to do your thinking for you. If you don't understand that after a certain age, cars are no more a threat to children than they are to adults – then I don't expect you to understand why and how criminals are a threat to people around them.

throwaway2037 2y ago

> Not necessarily because of cars but significant crime. I love these HN comments -- so incredibly vague. Can you be more specific about which cities? I find it hard to believe. Crime has fallen like a stone in the last 30 years in highly developed countries and their biggest cities.

vidarh 2y ago
There is however an impression in fairly substantial parts of society that it's gotten worse, and that impression might well have a greater effect than the actual rate on some people's behaviours.
- newswasboring 2y ago
  Can you find a source for this claim for European countries? I personally can't but maybe my scholar foo is bad.
  - vidarh 2y ago
    For which claim? That people have an impression that things have gotten worse? You look at our recent European elections and how much of the campaigning was on law and order and the perception of the collapse of society.
    - newswasboring 2y ago
      Now you are moving the goal post. And if you ask me, those are just masks for inner racism about immigrants stealing their jerbs. I live in Europe and I don't see this being a big consideration. So if I'm not hearing it from my fellows then I would need at least a survey to believe this. I've seen those surveys for US.
      - vidarh 2y ago
        No, I have not moved any goalposts. I explicitly made the point that the impression is common, despite the actual numbers not supporting it. That was the entire point of my comment. I don't know what you thought you read. And I agree it's usually about racism. If you live in Europe, just look at the EU Parliament elections and see how the far right did. Or follow the political discourse in pretty much any European country. If you're not hearing it, your not paying attention to pretty much any political reporting.

koyote 2y ago

Please don't throw wild vague claims around without substantiating with data/sources. Crime has decreased pretty much everywhere over the last three decades. I am sure there are pockets in the world where it hasn't, but those would be the exception. [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-western-europe?time=1990..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-wes...]

piva00 2y ago

Please, share your sources and what cities you are talking about. I live in Europe and I see groups of kids hanging out by themselves all the time in many, many major cities across the continent.

pantalaimon 2y ago

I’m now curious where those urban areas are where crime is so significant, kids no longer can walk to school. (And what kind of crime? We don’t really have lots of drive-by-shootings here, kids aren’t exactly a prime target for robberies either)

ponector 2y ago

Sounds like a false claim. Robbery of children? Human trafficking? What exactly are you talking? I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters.

david-gpu 2y ago
> I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters. How many deaths have they caused? How do those stats compare to the deaths caused by motor vehicles? Which one is more dangerous based on that data? I have looked at local pedestrian casualty statistics and motor vehicles are by far the largest cause of injury and death in the large city where I live. I haven't even been able to find what was the last time that a cyclist or e-scooter rider killed a pedestrian. Meanwhile, cars and trucks have killed four cyclists this year alone.
bedobi 2y ago
> electric scooters this is bullshit, cars kill and injure orders of magnitude more people in Europe than scooters do. That's not to say there's 0 issues with scooters, because there are, but focus should remain on cars, not scooters.

GJim 2y ago

> but significant crime The crime that has been *falling* throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ?

constantcrying 2y ago
>The crime that has been falling throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ? crime=/=crime The park were we hung out as kids is now inhabited by drug dealers. Obviously no place for kids, or families or basically anyone else, I will try to avoid if I reasonably can. And of course there was no increase in statistical crime, as it just is not getting prosecuted, although it is clear as day that it is happening. Crime stats are hugely misleading if you want to figure out what a social environment looks like.