4 ms·

Few points but overall agree. 1. ARC was a bad project. Gateway was always going to be necessary even if ARC was completed. I'm skeptical that the region would

Few points but overall agree. 1. ARC was a bad project. Gateway was always going to be necessary even if ARC was completed. I'm skeptical that the region would get a second bite at the federal funding apple for Gateway if ARC was built. It's not even clear to me that Gateway's alignment would have been possible if ARC was built. 2. NJT defers maintenance because it funds its operating subsidy through the capital budget. It has at least since Chris Christie slashed the operating subsidy during the financial crisis (NJ budget was massively strained). 3. There were stories a few years ago about NJT problems holding onto train engineers. Trainees would generally leave for jobs at MTA, LIRR, and Amtrak that paid 30%+ more. Going back to that $2+ billion that commuting NJ residents pay to NYS - which presumably subsidizes MTA operations - it sort of looks like that structural tax issue is causing NJ residents to subsidize MTA salaries to the detriment of NJT. 4. Going back to the tax issue. NYS and NYC benefit from NJ commuter access. Building ARC or Gateway make it so NJ can send more commuters to NYC to pay taxes to NYS. Why should NJ pay anything for its construction? I'm generally supportive of congestion pricing. But I think NYC/NYS have a long history of treating NJ like a bedroom community that it has no responsibility toward. It doesn't have to after all - no votes, politicians will never care about non-constituents. But like, to impose another tax that meaningfully impacts NJ residents resides in the context of a deeply toxic, dysfunctional dynamic. NJ residents should rightfully be bothered.

woodruffw 2y ago
> ARC was a bad project. Gateway was always going to be necessary even if ARC was completed. I'm skeptical that the region would get a second bite at the federal funding apple for Gateway if ARC was built. It's not even clear to me that Gateway's alignment would have been possible if ARC was built. This is a fair point, but was ARC actually canceled with the expectation that Gateway was going to be announced? That may have been what happened behind the scenes, but it isn't how it looked on the public side at the time: what I remember thinking at the time was that Chrisie unilaterally pulled NJ out of a joint project with no alternative. > There were stories a few years ago about NJT problems holding onto train engineers. Trainees would generally leave for jobs at MTA, LIRR, and Amtrak that paid 30%+ more. Going back to that $2+ billion that commuting NJ residents pay to NYS - which presumably subsidizes MTA operations - it sort of looks like that structural tax issue is causing NJ residents to subsidize MTA salaries to the detriment of NJT. I hadn't heard those stories about NJT struggling to hold on to talent, that's helpful context. That being said, I don't think that $2B+ is going directly to the MTA -- my understanding is that the MTA's tax inflows mostly come from the MCTMT[1], which is levied against employers. So it's not as though MTA money is coming directly out of NJ residents' pockets, although you could argue that a payroll tax indirectly suppresses their wages. > Going back to the tax issue. NYS and NYC benefit from NJ commuter access. Building ARC or Gateway make it so NJ can send more commuters to NYC to pay taxes to NYS. Why should NJ pay anything for its construction? IMO, the simplest reason is that it still makes NJ wealthier: good transit between NJ and NYC means further incentives for NYC residents to move across the river, and retains people already living in NJ (where they pay sales tax, real estate taxes, etc.). It also enables reverse flow: strong transit between the two brings NYers into Northern NJ for tourism and shopping (I have places that I want to go in Fort Lee, Hackensack, etc. that I don't bother with because NJT is a hassle). I think you're right about how NYC treats Northern NJ. But I also think this doesn't get better, for the reasons you've mentioned. Maybe that could be ameliorated over time by eliminating the state boundaries in the twos' transit networks, but I don't think either has any immediate political appetite for that beyond what already exists with PANYNJ. [1]: https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/mctmt/emp.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/mctmt/emp.htm
- leetnewb 2y ago
  The cynical argument is that Christie pulled out of ARC to win points with conservative voters ahead of a presidential run. That is probably where I land. However, construction started in 2009 (when NJ budget was massively strained) and NJ's public pension underfunding was a growing and looming crisis. Christie was the first governor to start making large payments to the pension in an effort to catch up. It is possible that he made a "pragmatic" decision of something easy to cut in the moment given the shrinking revenue and ballooning obligations. In other words, he could kick the can down the road on ARC but pension was a requirement. https://new.mta.info/document/101141 https://new.mta.info/document/101141 It looks like the MCTMT tax is about $2 billion out of $9 billion of operating subsidies. It isn't clear to me whether that is levied on nonresident employees. The Metropolitan Mass Transportation Operating Assistance (MMTOA)is the biggest contributor to subsidy (which sounds like sales tax and a few others), along with the gas tax, property transfer, and a few others. All in all, I think it's fair to say that the NYS budget isn't meaningfully contributing to the MTA relative to other sources. Personally, I wish the federal government would do more to help with the NY/NJ dynamics. Be the go between, manage the conflicting interests. We can do so much better with harmonization of transit networks, and the region already gives so much to the rest of the country. But I also think voters in both states need to be more aware of the actual issues we have been talking about here. There seems to be so little understanding of how things work and why things are the way they are. Maybe informed voters could tip the scales enough for NY/NJ politicians to play better together, or at least talk to these real issues.

woodruffw 2y ago

> ARC was a bad project. Gateway was always going to be necessary even if ARC was completed. I'm skeptical that the region would get a second bite at the federal funding apple for Gateway if ARC was built. It's not even clear to me that Gateway's alignment would have been possible if ARC was built. This is a fair point, but was ARC actually canceled with the expectation that Gateway was going to be announced? That may have been what happened behind the scenes, but it isn't how it looked on the public side at the time: what I remember thinking at the time was that Chrisie unilaterally pulled NJ out of a joint project with no alternative. > There were stories a few years ago about NJT problems holding onto train engineers. Trainees would generally leave for jobs at MTA, LIRR, and Amtrak that paid 30%+ more. Going back to that $2+ billion that commuting NJ residents pay to NYS - which presumably subsidizes MTA operations - it sort of looks like that structural tax issue is causing NJ residents to subsidize MTA salaries to the detriment of NJT. I hadn't heard those stories about NJT struggling to hold on to talent, that's helpful context. That being said, I don't think that $2B+ is going directly to the MTA -- my understanding is that the MTA's tax inflows mostly come from the MCTMT[1], which is levied against employers. So it's not as though MTA money is coming directly out of NJ residents' pockets, although you could argue that a payroll tax indirectly suppresses their wages. > Going back to the tax issue. NYS and NYC benefit from NJ commuter access. Building ARC or Gateway make it so NJ can send more commuters to NYC to pay taxes to NYS. Why should NJ pay anything for its construction? IMO, the simplest reason is that it still makes NJ wealthier: good transit between NJ and NYC means further incentives for NYC residents to move across the river, and retains people already living in NJ (where they pay sales tax, real estate taxes, etc.). It also enables reverse flow: strong transit between the two brings NYers into Northern NJ for tourism and shopping (I have places that I want to go in Fort Lee, Hackensack, etc. that I don't bother with because NJT is a hassle). I think you're right about how NYC treats Northern NJ. But I also think this doesn't get better, for the reasons you've mentioned. Maybe that could be ameliorated over time by eliminating the state boundaries in the twos' transit networks, but I don't think either has any immediate political appetite for that beyond what already exists with PANYNJ. [1]: https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/mctmt/emp.htm https://www.tax.ny.gov/bus/mctmt/emp.htm

leetnewb 2y ago
The cynical argument is that Christie pulled out of ARC to win points with conservative voters ahead of a presidential run. That is probably where I land. However, construction started in 2009 (when NJ budget was massively strained) and NJ's public pension underfunding was a growing and looming crisis. Christie was the first governor to start making large payments to the pension in an effort to catch up. It is possible that he made a "pragmatic" decision of something easy to cut in the moment given the shrinking revenue and ballooning obligations. In other words, he could kick the can down the road on ARC but pension was a requirement. https://new.mta.info/document/101141 https://new.mta.info/document/101141 It looks like the MCTMT tax is about $2 billion out of $9 billion of operating subsidies. It isn't clear to me whether that is levied on nonresident employees. The Metropolitan Mass Transportation Operating Assistance (MMTOA)is the biggest contributor to subsidy (which sounds like sales tax and a few others), along with the gas tax, property transfer, and a few others. All in all, I think it's fair to say that the NYS budget isn't meaningfully contributing to the MTA relative to other sources. Personally, I wish the federal government would do more to help with the NY/NJ dynamics. Be the go between, manage the conflicting interests. We can do so much better with harmonization of transit networks, and the region already gives so much to the rest of the country. But I also think voters in both states need to be more aware of the actual issues we have been talking about here. There seems to be so little understanding of how things work and why things are the way they are. Maybe informed voters could tip the scales enough for NY/NJ politicians to play better together, or at least talk to these real issues.