4 ms·

Why is no one ever asking how to falsify Copenhagen vs other interpretations? What did Copenhagen ever do to deserve this privilege?

mistermann 2y ago
Copenhagen is somehow more persuasive. Bohm's implicate and explicate order is an interesting relevant theory.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  copenhagen is popular for historical reasons including our historical obsession with the mind-body duality. many physicists i talk to secretly admit to MWI/universal wavefunction making more sense but it is metaphysics and academia is a conservative institution, especially for metaphysics.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Popularity resolves to beliefs, and beliefs are formed via persuasiveness of stories. There may be some math contained within the stories, but ultimately physics is driven by persuasiveness of stories, as with all other endeavors involving humans. Now that we're in the age of AI, perhaps things will change.
n4r9 2y ago
People do think about that. But it's rich of Carroll to claim that MWI is falsifiable, as if it is quantum theory.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
So the question under discussion is whether many-worlds is, or should be, "generally accepted". It isn't. If it's not generally accepted and wants to be, then it has the burden of proof. Claiming that many-worlds met its burden of proof (compared to Copenhagen) by something other than Copenhagen not being proven is completely missing the point. If you want people to believe many-worlds rather than Copenhagen, you have to disprove Copenhagen. If you don't, then people will continue to believe Copenhagen.
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Not a physicist but my guess is that Copenhagen was a "mental trick" (not in a bad sense) that got people off of worrying too much about questions we still don't have answers to e.g "what is a measurement", and got people to "shut up and calculate", which yielded results. Hence it's success
- mr_mitm 2y ago
  No, my question was: why did Copenhagen become generally accepted? You're saying: it just is, deal with it. That's unsatisfactory. Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority. That is correct. Physics inherits that from culture, which runs on-top of reality, and that is how reality works. Personally, I agree with you, but reality is consensus based. Deal with it (develop a better story, or meme - "Shut up and calculate" seems effective despite it being in no way whatsoever a proof of anything...try and come up with something catchy like that).
  - sebzim4500 2y ago
    Pretty sure they are a plurality, not the majority.
  - jahnu 2y ago
    Copenhagen doesn’t even seem to be well defined unlike Pilot Wave, Objective Collapse, GRW…
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    If I understand correctly, Copenhagen became generally accepted because it was around for several decades before many-worlds. > You're saying: it just is, deal with it. That's unsatisfactory. Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority. I'm saying that Copenhagen is the de facto default, no matter what you think should be. If you want that to change, you have to change peoples' minds. These being scientists, you typically need some evidence to make them change their minds - they're not going to do it just because you think they should. Without evidence (impossible in principle, if Copenhagen and many-worlds make the same predictions), you can argue that one shouldn't have a firm stance on this, since both interpretations give the same results, and there is no experimental way of discerning one from the other. (This looks a lot like "shut up and calculate".) Or you can argue that the philosophical position of many-worlds is more "parsimonious" or better in some other sense, but that's philosophy, and that doesn't persuade scientists all that well. TL;DR: If you want people to move from where they are to where they aren't, give them a reason. If you don't, don't be surprised when they don't move.

mistermann 2y ago

Copenhagen is somehow more persuasive. Bohm's implicate and explicate order is an interesting relevant theory.

whimsicalism 2y ago
copenhagen is popular for historical reasons including our historical obsession with the mind-body duality. many physicists i talk to secretly admit to MWI/universal wavefunction making more sense but it is metaphysics and academia is a conservative institution, especially for metaphysics.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Popularity resolves to beliefs, and beliefs are formed via persuasiveness of stories. There may be some math contained within the stories, but ultimately physics is driven by persuasiveness of stories, as with all other endeavors involving humans. Now that we're in the age of AI, perhaps things will change.

n4r9 2y ago

People do think about that. But it's rich of Carroll to claim that MWI is falsifiable, as if it is quantum theory.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago

So the question under discussion is whether many-worlds is, or should be, "generally accepted". It isn't. If it's not generally accepted and wants to be, then it has the burden of proof. Claiming that many-worlds met its burden of proof (compared to Copenhagen) by something other than Copenhagen not being proven is completely missing the point. If you want people to believe many-worlds rather than Copenhagen, you have to disprove Copenhagen. If you don't, then people will continue to believe Copenhagen.

throwawaymaths 2y ago
Not a physicist but my guess is that Copenhagen was a "mental trick" (not in a bad sense) that got people off of worrying too much about questions we still don't have answers to e.g "what is a measurement", and got people to "shut up and calculate", which yielded results. Hence it's success
mr_mitm 2y ago
No, my question was: why did Copenhagen become generally accepted? You're saying: it just is, deal with it. That's unsatisfactory. Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority.
- mistermann 2y ago
  > Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority. That is correct. Physics inherits that from culture, which runs on-top of reality, and that is how reality works. Personally, I agree with you, but reality is consensus based. Deal with it (develop a better story, or meme - "Shut up and calculate" seems effective despite it being in no way whatsoever a proof of anything...try and come up with something catchy like that).
- sebzim4500 2y ago
  Pretty sure they are a plurality, not the majority.
- jahnu 2y ago
  Copenhagen doesn’t even seem to be well defined unlike Pilot Wave, Objective Collapse, GRW…
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  If I understand correctly, Copenhagen became generally accepted because it was around for several decades before many-worlds. > You're saying: it just is, deal with it. That's unsatisfactory. Copenhagen proponents never seem to have to defend their stance, and you're telling me they don't have to because they're the majority. I'm saying that Copenhagen is the de facto default, no matter what you think should be. If you want that to change, you have to change peoples' minds. These being scientists, you typically need some evidence to make them change their minds - they're not going to do it just because you think they should. Without evidence (impossible in principle, if Copenhagen and many-worlds make the same predictions), you can argue that one shouldn't have a firm stance on this, since both interpretations give the same results, and there is no experimental way of discerning one from the other. (This looks a lot like "shut up and calculate".) Or you can argue that the philosophical position of many-worlds is more "parsimonious" or better in some other sense, but that's philosophy, and that doesn't persuade scientists all that well. TL;DR: If you want people to move from where they are to where they aren't, give them a reason. If you don't, don't be surprised when they don't move.