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Good thing the EU didn't pass regulations crippling their local AI & ML industry before it even got off the ground then. Is no European politician talking abou

Good thing the EU didn't pass regulations crippling their local AI & ML industry before it even got off the ground then. Is no European politician talking about why they are absolutely dependant on US Software, US Hardware and US Technology Services, does it raise too many awkward questions to do that?

filereaper 2y ago
The European Politician would have to introspect and answer exactly how it is that they add value. All they can do is enact regulations and decrees in a centralized way like the former USSR. Also as a entrepreneur in Europe, what incentives are there to create anything. There's the existing crippling regulations, employment laws are tough to try things out and just go bust, and at the end of it all if you're successful, the taxes remove whatever gains you should rightfully get for jumping through all these hoops. All you have now are $200k designer bag manufacturers because of legacy. I hope to god they do whatever is needed to keep ASML and the like competitive.
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
  Could you name some of those crippling regulations you're talking about? Just so Im better informed as a european
- jsiepkes 2y ago
  So what are you proposing? Joining the race to the bottom to the Chinese surveillance state? Sell out "OCP"-style to big tech like the US?
  - sunaookami 2y ago
    > Joining the race to the bottom to the Chinese surveillance state? Look up chat control and Digital Services Act.
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    I won't propose a solution since I'm not in charge, but my guess for what will happen regardless is the EU outsources its tech innovation to some other place where they can still reap the rewards. Kinda like how they've imported energy from countries with lower environmental standards.
    - jsiepkes 2y ago
      > but my guess for what will happen regardless is the EU outsources its tech innovation to some other place where they can still reap the rewards. The AI laws don't work that way. Just like Google can't say: "We'll just put all of our servers in the US so we don't have to comply with the GDPR and start serving the EU market". > Kinda like how they've imported energy from countries with lower environmental standards. That doesn't happen. Importing energy from another country doesn't make any difference for a countries emission rights and second of all the energy grid of the EU is connected only in a very limited way to countries outside the EU (like Turkey).
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > AI laws don't work that way The companies being in America and selling demanded services in the EU will force the laws into one configuration, whether through lobbying by customers or direct pressure from the U.S. I’m not seeing, for example, any effort to comply with EU regulations among any of the smaller AI startups, most of whom have customers in the EU. (Which is rational. Once they get bigger they can weigh fines against exiting the market. And if it becomes widespread, it can escalate to a political priority for State.)
      - hot_gril 2y ago
        Other way. An EU-based or EU-related business can serve non-EU customers differently. I'm referring to natural gas and other energy, not the electrical grid.
        hot_gril 2y ago
        (or it can serve EU customers but be offshore enough that it's not subject to EU countries' labor laws or taxes)
hot_gril 2y ago
Their proposed solution will be to regulate AI
impossiblefork 2y ago
What problem do you believe that present regulations impose? At present, I see the thing preventing European LLMs as mostly being that there is less access to capital for computing resources and the cost of computing resources. The US is very dominant in computing, it's a matter of history and the EU is a very recent thing. We don't have an Intel, or NVIDIA, etc., yet, and we may not have one for many years, but are established in the parts of the industry where we happen to be so. None of this has to do with regulation. But we do absolutely need some kind of hardware program to make European vector/tensor processors, something like the European processor initative, but willing to sell to whoever will buy and not just to existing supercomputer customers. Maybe they're even planning something of that sort. But the problem isn't regulations.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  What filereaper said. The taxes and labor regulations alone make the risk vs reward not make sense for tech startups, and that's without getting into explicit tech regulations.
  - impossiblefork 2y ago
    The taxes are a huge problem. The labour regulations, I think less so. The taxes on wage income are why you can't get two European engineers for the price of one American engineer, and are I think, why there hasn't been a software industry exodus to European, or a European software explosion. If you could actually pay out what people bring in, I think we'd had an enormous software industry, because the jobs would have been so attractive. The typical European tax on wages isn't an obvious crisis when companies use capital, but when what's productive is labour itself, then it is.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > taxes are a huge problem. The labour regulations, I think less so I’d invert this. Taxes aren’t a huge issue for start-ups. Not being able to pivot by changing team composition is. Add to that the random EU-specific AI regulations, and it becomes a clearly second-tier place to launch from unless you have the political connections to land national champion status, e.g. Mistral.
constantcrying 2y ago
>Is no European politician talking about why they are absolutely dependant on US Software, US Hardware and US Technology Services, does it raise too many awkward questions to do that? I have no doubt they are. But it is extremely hard to admit that you yourself have caused these problems. Maybe it can be fixed by regulating more.

filereaper 2y ago

The European Politician would have to introspect and answer exactly how it is that they add value. All they can do is enact regulations and decrees in a centralized way like the former USSR. Also as a entrepreneur in Europe, what incentives are there to create anything. There's the existing crippling regulations, employment laws are tough to try things out and just go bust, and at the end of it all if you're successful, the taxes remove whatever gains you should rightfully get for jumping through all these hoops. All you have now are $200k designer bag manufacturers because of legacy. I hope to god they do whatever is needed to keep ASML and the like competitive.

bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
Could you name some of those crippling regulations you're talking about? Just so Im better informed as a european
jsiepkes 2y ago
So what are you proposing? Joining the race to the bottom to the Chinese surveillance state? Sell out "OCP"-style to big tech like the US?
- sunaookami 2y ago
  > Joining the race to the bottom to the Chinese surveillance state? Look up chat control and Digital Services Act.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  I won't propose a solution since I'm not in charge, but my guess for what will happen regardless is the EU outsources its tech innovation to some other place where they can still reap the rewards. Kinda like how they've imported energy from countries with lower environmental standards.
  - jsiepkes 2y ago
    > but my guess for what will happen regardless is the EU outsources its tech innovation to some other place where they can still reap the rewards. The AI laws don't work that way. Just like Google can't say: "We'll just put all of our servers in the US so we don't have to comply with the GDPR and start serving the EU market". > Kinda like how they've imported energy from countries with lower environmental standards. That doesn't happen. Importing energy from another country doesn't make any difference for a countries emission rights and second of all the energy grid of the EU is connected only in a very limited way to countries outside the EU (like Turkey).
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > AI laws don't work that way The companies being in America and selling demanded services in the EU will force the laws into one configuration, whether through lobbying by customers or direct pressure from the U.S. I’m not seeing, for example, any effort to comply with EU regulations among any of the smaller AI startups, most of whom have customers in the EU. (Which is rational. Once they get bigger they can weigh fines against exiting the market. And if it becomes widespread, it can escalate to a political priority for State.)
    - hot_gril 2y ago
      Other way. An EU-based or EU-related business can serve non-EU customers differently. I'm referring to natural gas and other energy, not the electrical grid.
      - hot_gril 2y ago
        (or it can serve EU customers but be offshore enough that it's not subject to EU countries' labor laws or taxes)

hot_gril 2y ago

Their proposed solution will be to regulate AI

impossiblefork 2y ago

What problem do you believe that present regulations impose? At present, I see the thing preventing European LLMs as mostly being that there is less access to capital for computing resources and the cost of computing resources. The US is very dominant in computing, it's a matter of history and the EU is a very recent thing. We don't have an Intel, or NVIDIA, etc., yet, and we may not have one for many years, but are established in the parts of the industry where we happen to be so. None of this has to do with regulation. But we do absolutely need some kind of hardware program to make European vector/tensor processors, something like the European processor initative, but willing to sell to whoever will buy and not just to existing supercomputer customers. Maybe they're even planning something of that sort. But the problem isn't regulations.

hot_gril 2y ago
What filereaper said. The taxes and labor regulations alone make the risk vs reward not make sense for tech startups, and that's without getting into explicit tech regulations.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  The taxes are a huge problem. The labour regulations, I think less so. The taxes on wage income are why you can't get two European engineers for the price of one American engineer, and are I think, why there hasn't been a software industry exodus to European, or a European software explosion. If you could actually pay out what people bring in, I think we'd had an enormous software industry, because the jobs would have been so attractive. The typical European tax on wages isn't an obvious crisis when companies use capital, but when what's productive is labour itself, then it is.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > taxes are a huge problem. The labour regulations, I think less so I’d invert this. Taxes aren’t a huge issue for start-ups. Not being able to pivot by changing team composition is. Add to that the random EU-specific AI regulations, and it becomes a clearly second-tier place to launch from unless you have the political connections to land national champion status, e.g. Mistral.

constantcrying 2y ago

>Is no European politician talking about why they are absolutely dependant on US Software, US Hardware and US Technology Services, does it raise too many awkward questions to do that? I have no doubt they are. But it is extremely hard to admit that you yourself have caused these problems. Maybe it can be fixed by regulating more.