4 ms·

what's the current recommendation instead of ROS?

ubj 2y ago
There's a few alternatives. Zenoh [1] is an up-and-coming distributed middleware. ROS2 is actually adding it as an alternative to DDS [2]. LCM [3] is another middleware that has been around for a while. [1]: https://zenoh.io/ https://zenoh.io/ [2]: https://newsroom.eclipse.org/eclipse-newsletter/2023/october/eclipse-zenoh-selected-alternate-ros-2-middleware https://newsroom.eclipse.org/eclipse-newsletter/2023/october... [3]: https://lcm-proj.github.io/lcm/ https://lcm-proj.github.io/lcm/
- ModernMech 2y ago
  Those aren't really ROS alternatives though, as they seem to offer just the message passing layer, which is one of the best features of ROS, but it's not really enough in isolation from the other good features.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    People forget that ROS isn't really about the IPC or the build system or the networking. Ok it is about those things, but fundamentally it's about standardization. Grab any lidar driver and it'll output a LaserScan. Every wheeled robot will send out Odometry, anything from a submarine to a flying drone to an agv will respond to a Twist message, every robot will have a central coordinate frame called "base_link", etc. The cross ecosystem interoperability is frankly insane and the main perk of it all. It makes building things easy when you don't have to deal with writing adapters every single damn time. This is why ROS 2 is currently such a step backwards because it fragments the ecosystem in DDS compatibility, making sure that no two packages will necessarily be able to run concurrently.
margalabargala 2y ago
Viam seems promising, especially for cloud connected stuff.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Any framework that has "Start for free" and "Contact sales" on the home page is gonna do really great at mass developer adoption. Can't wait for them to rugpull everyone and close source all of their code when the VCs want to get paid.
  - patrick451 2y ago
    Indeed. In the robotics space, this just happened with foxglove studio. Six months ago, I considered advocating that we switch our bespoke visualizer to be a bunch of foxglove plugins instead. Today, it's clear that would have been a terrible move.
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      Quite right. Corporate open source is always one step away from straight up trapping people through sunk cost. Sometimes a change in management is all that needs to happen. At least Vizanti will always stay open ;)
    - ModernMech 2y ago
      Wait what has Foxglove done?
      - patrick451 2y ago
        foxglove-studio is no longer open source https://foxglove.dev/blog/foxglove-2-0-unifying-robotics-observability https://foxglove.dev/blog/foxglove-2-0-unifying-robotics-obs... BMW research has the most promising fork I have seen yet https://github.com/bmw-software-engineering/Foxbox https://github.com/bmw-software-engineering/Foxbox
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    The founder is the same person who made MongoDB, which is still source available, SSPL notwithstanding. Point taken though.
nightpool 2y ago
ROS is one of those "frameworks" that's so awful and pervasive that for teams of more than 2 people handrolling your own networking is almost always going to be better than trying to make ROS work.

ubj 2y ago

There's a few alternatives. Zenoh [1] is an up-and-coming distributed middleware. ROS2 is actually adding it as an alternative to DDS [2]. LCM [3] is another middleware that has been around for a while. [1]: https://zenoh.io/ https://zenoh.io/ [2]: https://newsroom.eclipse.org/eclipse-newsletter/2023/october/eclipse-zenoh-selected-alternate-ros-2-middleware https://newsroom.eclipse.org/eclipse-newsletter/2023/october... [3]: https://lcm-proj.github.io/lcm/ https://lcm-proj.github.io/lcm/

ModernMech 2y ago
Those aren't really ROS alternatives though, as they seem to offer just the message passing layer, which is one of the best features of ROS, but it's not really enough in isolation from the other good features.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  People forget that ROS isn't really about the IPC or the build system or the networking. Ok it is about those things, but fundamentally it's about standardization. Grab any lidar driver and it'll output a LaserScan. Every wheeled robot will send out Odometry, anything from a submarine to a flying drone to an agv will respond to a Twist message, every robot will have a central coordinate frame called "base_link", etc. The cross ecosystem interoperability is frankly insane and the main perk of it all. It makes building things easy when you don't have to deal with writing adapters every single damn time. This is why ROS 2 is currently such a step backwards because it fragments the ecosystem in DDS compatibility, making sure that no two packages will necessarily be able to run concurrently.

margalabargala 2y ago

Viam seems promising, especially for cloud connected stuff.

moffkalast 2y ago
Any framework that has "Start for free" and "Contact sales" on the home page is gonna do really great at mass developer adoption. Can't wait for them to rugpull everyone and close source all of their code when the VCs want to get paid.
- patrick451 2y ago
  Indeed. In the robotics space, this just happened with foxglove studio. Six months ago, I considered advocating that we switch our bespoke visualizer to be a bunch of foxglove plugins instead. Today, it's clear that would have been a terrible move.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    Quite right. Corporate open source is always one step away from straight up trapping people through sunk cost. Sometimes a change in management is all that needs to happen. At least Vizanti will always stay open ;)
  - ModernMech 2y ago
    Wait what has Foxglove done?
    - patrick451 2y ago
      foxglove-studio is no longer open source https://foxglove.dev/blog/foxglove-2-0-unifying-robotics-observability https://foxglove.dev/blog/foxglove-2-0-unifying-robotics-obs... BMW research has the most promising fork I have seen yet https://github.com/bmw-software-engineering/Foxbox https://github.com/bmw-software-engineering/Foxbox
- margalabargala 2y ago
  The founder is the same person who made MongoDB, which is still source available, SSPL notwithstanding. Point taken though.

nightpool 2y ago

ROS is one of those "frameworks" that's so awful and pervasive that for teams of more than 2 people handrolling your own networking is almost always going to be better than trying to make ROS work.