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Good, right? There’s nothing wrong with a company deciding it wants workers in office. It might be a decision with negative outcomes and it might not be. Some

Good, right? There’s nothing wrong with a company deciding it wants workers in office. It might be a decision with negative outcomes and it might not be. Some senior employees may enjoy working in the office. Some may not. I don’t see why remote work is treated as some sort of default-correct position here on HN. Just like in-office work, remote work is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. If your employer makes a decision you dislike it’s up to you to decide whether it’s something you can stomach and continue to work there over.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Worker rights issue. You’re not a slave to management, and it shouldn’t be unilateral. Like all things, it takes time for the zeitgeist to turn over as old folks die out and young folks enter the labor pool.
- paulcole 2y ago
  Not being a slave to management isn’t the same as getting to do whatever you want. This should be obvious but current employment isn’t a guarantee of future employment (both employee and employer can’t guarantee the behavior/decisions of the other). You can quit. The same as the company can’t force you to keep working there regardless of what they do. You can try to do whatever you want. But that’s where you figure out if you’re valuable enough to get away with it.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    That’s an opinion. There are other opinions. Like I said, progress is a function of how quickly the old guard dies out (1.8M folks over the age of 55 die every year in the US). Mental models are rigid, humans are emotion driven, etc. EDIT: @gedy Appreciate the ground truth, thanks for sharing.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      I mean, yes that is an opinion. Like I said from the beginning there’s no objective right or wrong on whether employees should be working remotely or working in office. Neither represents progress they just represent different opinions.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        > Like I said from the beginning there’s no objective right or wrong on whether employees should be working remotely or working in office. I don't agree with this, but I'm also not willing to argue the point and pollute the thread with someone who has already made up their mind. My apologies in advance.
        paulcole 2y ago
        So you think remote work is objectively "right"? I mean haven't you made up your mind already? because that feels like a more solid position than mine.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        In several countries, it is a right. The evidence shows it is more beneficial for worker quality of life, and there is strong evidence remote work is not detrimental to enterprise success. Change takes time. If you don't think it's a right, is it possible for me to change your mind? Unlikely. Therefore, time passing for those beliefs to age out while new workers age into working who do believe this is a right is the only path forward, no? Certainly, my emotional component is "workers deserve agency" but I'm also data informed, and the data shows remote work to be, if not better, not worse than pre-pandemic work arrangements. https://globalnews.lockton.com/new-remote-working-legislation-around-the-world/ https://globalnews.lockton.com/new-remote-working-legislatio... (i attribute my position to being a high empathy human and seeing the status quo around work arrangements and control for what they are, ymmv)
        paulcole 2y ago
        > If you don't think it's a right, is it possible for me to change your mind No. I think it should be up to the company to decide whether to offer remote work – outside of the situations where they must offer remote work by law. > my emotional component is "workers deserve agency" Workers have agency! They can go work somewhere that offers remote work. If remote work is so great then many companies will offer it.
    - gedy 2y ago
      > progress is a function of how quickly the old guard dies out I will say that with respect to WFH, younger folks I've dealt with seem to be ones wanting RTO more. Mostly seems because they have no home, family, and use office for social outlet.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
m_a_g 2y ago
I agree. I get three meals a day in the office and great office benefits. I live 30 minutes away from the office. I’m glad we’re not fully WFH and I know we’re the majority in our company.
- quesera 2y ago
  Your scenario can only work with no family, and a social life which is satisfied by coworkers. It is not for everyone.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    > a social life which is satisfied by coworkers. Why does every argument against working in an office end in a (at best thinly veiled) insult that these people must have no social life? Is it that hard to believe that a person who enjoys working in an office also has a social life outside of work? > Your scenario can only work with no family Obviously false. People with families have successfully (and unsuccessfully) worked in offices for decades.
    - quesera 2y ago
      You might have missed the context of my response. GP said they get three meals a day at the office, and live 30 mins away. I assert that this is incompatible with family, and with a social life centered around people who are not coworkers. I've lived that life! No judgement. Single, new city, growing company. It was great. But it was then, for me. It could not be now. My point is that, as a perq of RTO, those things could be compelling for a subset of employees only.
      - paulcole 2y ago
        > GP said they get three meals a day at the office, and live 30 mins away. > I assert that this is incompatible with family If you're saying that you can't have a family and live 30 minutes away from the office then I understood you. And it's just not true lol.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Worker rights issue. You’re not a slave to management, and it shouldn’t be unilateral. Like all things, it takes time for the zeitgeist to turn over as old folks die out and young folks enter the labor pool.

paulcole 2y ago
Not being a slave to management isn’t the same as getting to do whatever you want. This should be obvious but current employment isn’t a guarantee of future employment (both employee and employer can’t guarantee the behavior/decisions of the other). You can quit. The same as the company can’t force you to keep working there regardless of what they do. You can try to do whatever you want. But that’s where you figure out if you’re valuable enough to get away with it.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  That’s an opinion. There are other opinions. Like I said, progress is a function of how quickly the old guard dies out (1.8M folks over the age of 55 die every year in the US). Mental models are rigid, humans are emotion driven, etc. EDIT: @gedy Appreciate the ground truth, thanks for sharing.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    I mean, yes that is an opinion. Like I said from the beginning there’s no objective right or wrong on whether employees should be working remotely or working in office. Neither represents progress they just represent different opinions.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      > Like I said from the beginning there’s no objective right or wrong on whether employees should be working remotely or working in office. I don't agree with this, but I'm also not willing to argue the point and pollute the thread with someone who has already made up their mind. My apologies in advance.
      - paulcole 2y ago
        So you think remote work is objectively "right"? I mean haven't you made up your mind already? because that feels like a more solid position than mine.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        In several countries, it is a right. The evidence shows it is more beneficial for worker quality of life, and there is strong evidence remote work is not detrimental to enterprise success. Change takes time. If you don't think it's a right, is it possible for me to change your mind? Unlikely. Therefore, time passing for those beliefs to age out while new workers age into working who do believe this is a right is the only path forward, no? Certainly, my emotional component is "workers deserve agency" but I'm also data informed, and the data shows remote work to be, if not better, not worse than pre-pandemic work arrangements. https://globalnews.lockton.com/new-remote-working-legislation-around-the-world/ https://globalnews.lockton.com/new-remote-working-legislatio... (i attribute my position to being a high empathy human and seeing the status quo around work arrangements and control for what they are, ymmv)
        paulcole 2y ago
        > If you don't think it's a right, is it possible for me to change your mind No. I think it should be up to the company to decide whether to offer remote work – outside of the situations where they must offer remote work by law. > my emotional component is "workers deserve agency" Workers have agency! They can go work somewhere that offers remote work. If remote work is so great then many companies will offer it.
  - gedy 2y ago
    > progress is a function of how quickly the old guard dies out I will say that with respect to WFH, younger folks I've dealt with seem to be ones wanting RTO more. Mostly seems because they have no home, family, and use office for social outlet.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

m_a_g 2y ago

I agree. I get three meals a day in the office and great office benefits. I live 30 minutes away from the office. I’m glad we’re not fully WFH and I know we’re the majority in our company.

quesera 2y ago
Your scenario can only work with no family, and a social life which is satisfied by coworkers. It is not for everyone.
- paulcole 2y ago
  > a social life which is satisfied by coworkers. Why does every argument against working in an office end in a (at best thinly veiled) insult that these people must have no social life? Is it that hard to believe that a person who enjoys working in an office also has a social life outside of work? > Your scenario can only work with no family Obviously false. People with families have successfully (and unsuccessfully) worked in offices for decades.
  - quesera 2y ago
    You might have missed the context of my response. GP said they get three meals a day at the office, and live 30 mins away. I assert that this is incompatible with family, and with a social life centered around people who are not coworkers. I've lived that life! No judgement. Single, new city, growing company. It was great. But it was then, for me. It could not be now. My point is that, as a perq of RTO, those things could be compelling for a subset of employees only.
    - paulcole 2y ago
      > GP said they get three meals a day at the office, and live 30 mins away. > I assert that this is incompatible with family If you're saying that you can't have a family and live 30 minutes away from the office then I understood you. And it's just not true lol.