8 ms·

Most German companies do not have a problem with 4 day week - but they will decrease your payment accordingly calling it a Part-Time job

distances 2y ago
> they will decrease your payment accordingly Well of course, I don't think anyone expects to work 4 days and keep the full salary and the same accrual of holidays.
- wildrhythms 2y ago
  Why not? Shouldn't technological advancements lead to less need for human labor?
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Only if the expectations for quality of life, and other external factors such as supply of resources to maintain those expectations of quality of life, remain the same. Examples of increases in quality of life include things like living into one’s 80s and 90s using dialysis and heart surgeries and new medicines. Examples of changes in supply of resources include things like energy, labor, and a hospitable natural environment. All of these things are constantly in flux, and automation sometimes outpaces them, and sometimes does not.
    - account42 2y ago
      What a weird comment considering that free time is a major component of quality of life.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        I never claimed free time was not a major component of quality of life. The insinuation was that maintaining or increasing some components of quality of life, such as labor and resource intensive healthcare, could come at a cost of other components of quality of life, such as free time (and those gains/costs are not necessarily experienced by the same person).
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        Exactly. Imagine how will your quality of life be if all doctors, teachers, nurses, delivery workers, plumbers, service workers, also worked only 4 days/week. There would be an even worse labor shortage across the entire economy of biblical proportions. It's easy to see how it benefits you when only you're working 4 days/week but the rest of society on which your first world lifestyle depends, keeps working 5 days/week, being at your disposal for the same amount of time, while your enjoying more time off than the rest. Need a doctor? Sorry, you'll have to wait more time now because now all are working 4 days/week. Need to go grocery shopping? Sorry, everything is closed today. Need a plumber? Sorry, most are off today as well. There's no free lunch here. Moving the entire society to 4 days/week would require massive shifts economically and socially.
        account42 2y ago
        So why now advocate for 6 or 7 day work week then? Because time off is worth a lot. And going from a 5 day work week to a 4 day work week is a 20% reduction of work days but a whopping 50% increase in weekend days. Meanwhile the number of doctors and plumbers etc. is not a fixed constant but driven by demand. There are plenty of qualified people currently doing useless work or unemployed who could fill those roles with the right incentives.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Because time off is worth a lot. It is, but someone still has to work to keep society going in those "time off days". Doctors can't treat the same amount of patients in 4 days as in 5. Teachers can't squeeze the curriculum in 4 days. Customer support can't squeeze everyone in 4 days. Etc. So how will you increase the number of doctors and other staff to work in the days the existing staff are off? You can't just magic more workers out of thin air, especially now when we're already in a labor shortage in many fields like healthcare with everyone already working 5 days/week and with fertility declining in the west.
- jraph 2y ago
  Actually, many of us do. My company has been trying 4 day weeks twice a month since 2022 without salary decrease, the trial have been mostly conclusive, and we'll probably move forward and have 4 day weeks all weeks at some point. That's the stated goal anyway. The main difficulty is probably the fact that customers don't have 4 days and expect support all week. A partial answer to this is people have been able to pick 2 additional days off each month no questions asked, and not everybody like the same days off so it has been working out. Studies show productivity is kept at the same level when companies switch to 4 day week, but people are happier and feel more rested (which is why there are more productive, there's probably also the fact you don't have to worry about life stuff as much at work since you can do many things that need to be done during the week during the off day). Since we produce the same amount, I don't see why the full salary should not be kept.
  - dkyc 2y ago
    If productivity is kept at the same level, and people work a day less, you wouldn't produce the same amount.
    - jraph 2y ago
      I meant productivity overall is constant. Productivity "per hour" is better.
      - netdevnet 2y ago
        > I meant productivity overall is constant That's a huge statement there. Do you have any evidence that this is the case for everyone at every company no matter what?
        jraph 2y ago
        > Do you have any evidence that this is the case for everyone at every company no matter what? Of course not, you are asking for the impossible. But we have evidences that 4 day weeks boost productivity at least in some settings. If you are interested in the topic, look up "4 day week productivity" on a web search engine, or "4 day week" / "4 day workweek" on HN [1,2] if you want previous discussions about this. The topic is not new here. You'll find many posts where companies think it works. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=4+day+week&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=4+day+workweek&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- Scarblac 2y ago
  No, workers in Germany already have the right to work less hours in return for less pay. The idea is to lower the default weekly working hours while keeping the same salary. If productivity slowly goes up over time, it should be possible.
  - distances 2y ago
    I see, thanks for clarifying. I've been dismissing these articles as old news as "of course you can do it for a smaller salary".
- baal80spam 2y ago
  You would be surprised how many people expect 40/5 to equal 32/4
Rinzler89 2y ago
Sure, but the idea usually is to work less hours for the same pay, if productivity allows for it. And many sectors have seen increased productivity, but the benefits went to shareholders instead of workers. Not advocating for communism or for seizing the means of production.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  the idea is that if your productivity increases and you do 5 days of work in just 4 days you will be eaten alive by other companies based in countries where they are just as productive but decide to keep working 5 days instead.
  - grugagag 2y ago
    Only if your company outsources your job there though.
    - dagw 2y ago
      Even if your company doesn't outsource your job, your customers might 'outsource' their business, and you'll end up with no job either way.
      - grugagag 2y ago
        There’s a lot more there in the mix for customers oursourcing their business than a mere productivity measure. What stops them from outsourcing your business, the Fridays in the office?
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Definitely. That's why this doesn't really work for stuff like mass market manufacturing where your productive output is proportional to how long workers spend on the assembly line, but more for the companies that are in the innovation and knowledge work business and have secured a lucrative niche, where no competitiveness is lost due to fewer hours, but that's a relatively small percentage of the total employment.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dankben 2y ago
The right to a part time job has been around for about twenty years i think. The current discussion is to rethink the workweek as four days, there are multiple models in talks (4x 10 hours, 4x 8 hours with less pay, etc..) In my opinion the real problem is that the german tax system incentivises working less instead of more, as the marginal tax increases even for hours worked beyond the 40h work week -> the more you work the less you keep per hour.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  4x10h 4 times per week, every week sounds horrible IMHO. I personally definitely can't be 20% more productive per day by working 2 extra hours. This would only work if you clock in 10h on paper, but actually work much less hours from home where nobody tracks how much you actually work, but if have to actually clock in 10h per day at the office, plus commute time, I'll most likely just space out and watch the clock for the rest of those two hours. And then that extra free day per week would be to recover from the long working day at the office nullifying any advantage.
  - xattt 2y ago
    Healthcare workers often work on six-week rotations that average out to 37.5/40 h per week. The key word is average, because shifts are usually 12 hours and some weeks (one or two per six week rotation) are composed of 3 days on, 2 days off and 2 days on. This is 60h / week.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >This is 60h / week. That's not something we should praise. It's probably why healthcare workers are so burned out and make so many mistakes leading to malpractice. Maybe in certain healthcare cases, longer hours can be more tolerable when you're doing repetitive things you've already done a million times that you can do "on autopilot" without the risk of mistakes, but for mentally intensive tasks where you're constantly thinking and problem solving and need to stay sharp, there's no way I can pull 60h/week of productivity. I'm not even fully productive for the whole 40h, let alone more. I could pull 60h weeks if I were working on my own projects being my own boss answering only to myself and working at my own pace and deadlines, but not part of the soul crushing corporate machine with constant bullshit interruptions, meetings, theatrics and management breathing down my neck.
linsomniac 2y ago
The issue in the US is that often part time jobs do not include health care, so switching to 4x32 is not something I've really considered.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  I'm not an employment expert, but I believe that in the US, jobs of more than 30 hours per week come with benefits. I don't know if that's a legal requirement or just a custom.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    US employers are not technically required to offer subsidized health insurance. Although, it is usually cheaper for employers with more than 50 full time (30 hours per week) or full time equivalent employees to offer the subsidy rather than paying the “shared responsibility payment”. See #1. https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-and-answers-on-employer-shared-responsibility-provisions-under-the-affordable-care-act https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-... > Under these provisions, certain employers (called applicable large employers or ALEs) must either offer health coverage that is “affordable” and that provides “minimum value” to their full-time employees (and offer coverage to the full-time employees’ dependents), or potentially make an employer shared responsibility payment to the IRS, if at least one of their full-time employees receives a premium tax credit for purchasing individual coverage on a Health Insurance Marketplace (Marketplace), also called the Exchange.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      So 30 hours/week is a legal threshold for being in the "full time" category.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Basically, but just working 30+ hours per week does not mean an employer will offer subsidized health insurance. Small employers (franchised businesses, "mom and pop" businesses) will often times not offer any subsidized health insurance to any employee, since they do not meet the 50 FTE requirement to be subject to the shared responsibility payment.
sumuyuda 2y ago
Working here in Germany, I switched to part time at 75% (5 x 6 hours). Not having to grind another two hours per day is totally worth the pay decrease. Time is the most valuable resource we have.

distances 2y ago

> they will decrease your payment accordingly Well of course, I don't think anyone expects to work 4 days and keep the full salary and the same accrual of holidays.

wildrhythms 2y ago
Why not? Shouldn't technological advancements lead to less need for human labor?
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Only if the expectations for quality of life, and other external factors such as supply of resources to maintain those expectations of quality of life, remain the same. Examples of increases in quality of life include things like living into one’s 80s and 90s using dialysis and heart surgeries and new medicines. Examples of changes in supply of resources include things like energy, labor, and a hospitable natural environment. All of these things are constantly in flux, and automation sometimes outpaces them, and sometimes does not.
  - account42 2y ago
    What a weird comment considering that free time is a major component of quality of life.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      I never claimed free time was not a major component of quality of life. The insinuation was that maintaining or increasing some components of quality of life, such as labor and resource intensive healthcare, could come at a cost of other components of quality of life, such as free time (and those gains/costs are not necessarily experienced by the same person).
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        Exactly. Imagine how will your quality of life be if all doctors, teachers, nurses, delivery workers, plumbers, service workers, also worked only 4 days/week. There would be an even worse labor shortage across the entire economy of biblical proportions. It's easy to see how it benefits you when only you're working 4 days/week but the rest of society on which your first world lifestyle depends, keeps working 5 days/week, being at your disposal for the same amount of time, while your enjoying more time off than the rest. Need a doctor? Sorry, you'll have to wait more time now because now all are working 4 days/week. Need to go grocery shopping? Sorry, everything is closed today. Need a plumber? Sorry, most are off today as well. There's no free lunch here. Moving the entire society to 4 days/week would require massive shifts economically and socially.
        account42 2y ago
        So why now advocate for 6 or 7 day work week then? Because time off is worth a lot. And going from a 5 day work week to a 4 day work week is a 20% reduction of work days but a whopping 50% increase in weekend days. Meanwhile the number of doctors and plumbers etc. is not a fixed constant but driven by demand. There are plenty of qualified people currently doing useless work or unemployed who could fill those roles with the right incentives.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Because time off is worth a lot. It is, but someone still has to work to keep society going in those "time off days". Doctors can't treat the same amount of patients in 4 days as in 5. Teachers can't squeeze the curriculum in 4 days. Customer support can't squeeze everyone in 4 days. Etc. So how will you increase the number of doctors and other staff to work in the days the existing staff are off? You can't just magic more workers out of thin air, especially now when we're already in a labor shortage in many fields like healthcare with everyone already working 5 days/week and with fertility declining in the west.
jraph 2y ago
Actually, many of us do. My company has been trying 4 day weeks twice a month since 2022 without salary decrease, the trial have been mostly conclusive, and we'll probably move forward and have 4 day weeks all weeks at some point. That's the stated goal anyway. The main difficulty is probably the fact that customers don't have 4 days and expect support all week. A partial answer to this is people have been able to pick 2 additional days off each month no questions asked, and not everybody like the same days off so it has been working out. Studies show productivity is kept at the same level when companies switch to 4 day week, but people are happier and feel more rested (which is why there are more productive, there's probably also the fact you don't have to worry about life stuff as much at work since you can do many things that need to be done during the week during the off day). Since we produce the same amount, I don't see why the full salary should not be kept.
- dkyc 2y ago
  If productivity is kept at the same level, and people work a day less, you wouldn't produce the same amount.
  - jraph 2y ago
    I meant productivity overall is constant. Productivity "per hour" is better.
    - netdevnet 2y ago
      > I meant productivity overall is constant That's a huge statement there. Do you have any evidence that this is the case for everyone at every company no matter what?
      - jraph 2y ago
        > Do you have any evidence that this is the case for everyone at every company no matter what? Of course not, you are asking for the impossible. But we have evidences that 4 day weeks boost productivity at least in some settings. If you are interested in the topic, look up "4 day week productivity" on a web search engine, or "4 day week" / "4 day workweek" on HN [1,2] if you want previous discussions about this. The topic is not new here. You'll find many posts where companies think it works. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=4+day+week&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=4+day+workweek&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Scarblac 2y ago
No, workers in Germany already have the right to work less hours in return for less pay. The idea is to lower the default weekly working hours while keeping the same salary. If productivity slowly goes up over time, it should be possible.
- distances 2y ago
  I see, thanks for clarifying. I've been dismissing these articles as old news as "of course you can do it for a smaller salary".
baal80spam 2y ago
You would be surprised how many people expect 40/5 to equal 32/4

Rinzler89 2y ago

Sure, but the idea usually is to work less hours for the same pay, if productivity allows for it. And many sectors have seen increased productivity, but the benefits went to shareholders instead of workers. Not advocating for communism or for seizing the means of production.

ekianjo 2y ago
the idea is that if your productivity increases and you do 5 days of work in just 4 days you will be eaten alive by other companies based in countries where they are just as productive but decide to keep working 5 days instead.
- grugagag 2y ago
  Only if your company outsources your job there though.
  - dagw 2y ago
    Even if your company doesn't outsource your job, your customers might 'outsource' their business, and you'll end up with no job either way.
    - grugagag 2y ago
      There’s a lot more there in the mix for customers oursourcing their business than a mere productivity measure. What stops them from outsourcing your business, the Fridays in the office?
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Definitely. That's why this doesn't really work for stuff like mass market manufacturing where your productive output is proportional to how long workers spend on the assembly line, but more for the companies that are in the innovation and knowledge work business and have secured a lucrative niche, where no competitiveness is lost due to fewer hours, but that's a relatively small percentage of the total employment.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dankben 2y ago

The right to a part time job has been around for about twenty years i think. The current discussion is to rethink the workweek as four days, there are multiple models in talks (4x 10 hours, 4x 8 hours with less pay, etc..) In my opinion the real problem is that the german tax system incentivises working less instead of more, as the marginal tax increases even for hours worked beyond the 40h work week -> the more you work the less you keep per hour.

Rinzler89 2y ago
4x10h 4 times per week, every week sounds horrible IMHO. I personally definitely can't be 20% more productive per day by working 2 extra hours. This would only work if you clock in 10h on paper, but actually work much less hours from home where nobody tracks how much you actually work, but if have to actually clock in 10h per day at the office, plus commute time, I'll most likely just space out and watch the clock for the rest of those two hours. And then that extra free day per week would be to recover from the long working day at the office nullifying any advantage.
- xattt 2y ago
  Healthcare workers often work on six-week rotations that average out to 37.5/40 h per week. The key word is average, because shifts are usually 12 hours and some weeks (one or two per six week rotation) are composed of 3 days on, 2 days off and 2 days on. This is 60h / week.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >This is 60h / week. That's not something we should praise. It's probably why healthcare workers are so burned out and make so many mistakes leading to malpractice. Maybe in certain healthcare cases, longer hours can be more tolerable when you're doing repetitive things you've already done a million times that you can do "on autopilot" without the risk of mistakes, but for mentally intensive tasks where you're constantly thinking and problem solving and need to stay sharp, there's no way I can pull 60h/week of productivity. I'm not even fully productive for the whole 40h, let alone more. I could pull 60h weeks if I were working on my own projects being my own boss answering only to myself and working at my own pace and deadlines, but not part of the soul crushing corporate machine with constant bullshit interruptions, meetings, theatrics and management breathing down my neck.

linsomniac 2y ago

The issue in the US is that often part time jobs do not include health care, so switching to 4x32 is not something I've really considered.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
I'm not an employment expert, but I believe that in the US, jobs of more than 30 hours per week come with benefits. I don't know if that's a legal requirement or just a custom.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  US employers are not technically required to offer subsidized health insurance. Although, it is usually cheaper for employers with more than 50 full time (30 hours per week) or full time equivalent employees to offer the subsidy rather than paying the “shared responsibility payment”. See #1. https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-and-answers-on-employer-shared-responsibility-provisions-under-the-affordable-care-act https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/employers/questions-... > Under these provisions, certain employers (called applicable large employers or ALEs) must either offer health coverage that is “affordable” and that provides “minimum value” to their full-time employees (and offer coverage to the full-time employees’ dependents), or potentially make an employer shared responsibility payment to the IRS, if at least one of their full-time employees receives a premium tax credit for purchasing individual coverage on a Health Insurance Marketplace (Marketplace), also called the Exchange.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    So 30 hours/week is a legal threshold for being in the "full time" category.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Basically, but just working 30+ hours per week does not mean an employer will offer subsidized health insurance. Small employers (franchised businesses, "mom and pop" businesses) will often times not offer any subsidized health insurance to any employee, since they do not meet the 50 FTE requirement to be subject to the shared responsibility payment.

sumuyuda 2y ago

Working here in Germany, I switched to part time at 75% (5 x 6 hours). Not having to grind another two hours per day is totally worth the pay decrease. Time is the most valuable resource we have.