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Looking at the html of HN's pages, can't blame them really. Running though https://validator.w3.org/ https://validator.w3.org/ , the result is abysmal. At thi

Looking at the html of HN's pages, can't blame them really. Running though https://validator.w3.org/ https://validator.w3.org/ , the result is abysmal. At this rate, if web browsers started requiring sites to output HTML that is somewhere in the realm of normalcy, HN would sooner shut down than consider ever updating.

arp242 2y ago
Pretty much all of the HTML validator "errors" warnings for outdated attributes and the like. The "No space between attributes" one is pretty much the only real error.
- debugnik 2y ago
  Pointing the validator at this submission and filtering out obsolete elements/attributes and all warnings/info messages, I still got 221 errors: No DOCTYPE, an script element after closing the body, duplicate element ids, and invalid attributes (not obsolete, they must be be using them like data-*).
  - arp242 2y ago
    None of which are serious errors. Certainly not the type that introduce rendering errors.
Aardwolf 2y ago
Yet its pages load much faster than most websites, no cookie popups, no "subscribe to our newsletter" slide-ins, no phenomenon where the content loads but then a second later the page resets and re-loads the content again (probably with more ads or something), no images only getting loaded and popping in view while you scroll (rather than do it a bit predicatively beforehand so they'd pop in outside of your view to give a less slow impression), etc...
- sitharus 2y ago
  I don’t understand how that’s at odds with having spec-valid HTML and CSS
  - Aardwolf 2y ago
    Because updating to become conformant might come with the risk of making it a "modern" overhaul :/
    - noobermin 2y ago
      So, I'm fearful of that as most people here, but if any entity can manage a respectful update, it has to be someone Y Combinator can pay.
    - jraph 2y ago
      You don't need > no cookie popups, no "subscribe to our newsletter" slide-ins, no phenomenon where the content loads but then a second later the page resets and re-loads the content again (probably with more ads or something) to fix rendering layout using tables and cell width to render comment levels. Just a few lines of CSS and Arc really. That would be a big overhaul only because HN is very small, but not that big in absolute.
      - rwalle 2y ago
        And I just want a reasonable font size. On desktop it is miserable -- I always need to zoom to 133% to match the font size I see on other websites. On mobile it is ok.
        perilunar 2y ago
        I find it way too small on desktop, but it's not an issue because the browser remembers my zoom level. But I also find it too small on my mobile, and increasing the font size doesn't improve things, just makes it necessary to scroll sideways to read the comments. Overall the font size settings on HN are crap. I really wish @dang would listen to the frequent complaints and fix them.
bastawhiz 2y ago
The HTML is immaterial. If it parses into the correct DOM (which, by all accounts, it does), there's no reason why the HTML should affect how the CSS renders.
- its-summertime 2y ago
  https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/parsing.html https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/parsing.html I really love the length of this page.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    Lives up to its category of "multi page"!
- runarberg 2y ago
  The table based layout is a nightmare for assistive technology though. I can’t even imagine how users who rely on assistive technology use this site (of which I know there are indeed plenty). A semantically correct HTML would be something like a frontpage with an <ol> and the comment section would be a series of nested <article> each with a <header> containing the author a <time> and an extra bonus if the parent/context/sibling links can go under a <nav>. And the separators between the header elements should not be a text content pipe character `|` but rather a CSS border-inline-start: 1px solid currentcolor; A minimal and semantically correct HTML does not only offer superior experience for users of assistive technology, it also make your page machine readable, so users can install browser plugins to e.g. do something useful with the <time> element, and ultimately makes your page much easier to style with CSS.
fallingknife 2y ago
If you remove trivial errors for no space between attributes, table formatting, and use of "obsolete" inline styling instead of CSS it really isn't many. Could be cleaned up with a couple days engineering time or less.
- its-summertime 2y ago
  I think most people could clean it up within a day, maybe two at most. Whoever is currently maintaining the codebase has taken years. They have been making changes to the HTML of the site: SVGs were added for the voting arrows as the first example I can think of, so its not like its being left to languish completely. They just don't care.

arp242 2y ago

Pretty much all of the HTML validator "errors" warnings for outdated attributes and the like. The "No space between attributes" one is pretty much the only real error.

debugnik 2y ago
Pointing the validator at this submission and filtering out obsolete elements/attributes and all warnings/info messages, I still got 221 errors: No DOCTYPE, an script element after closing the body, duplicate element ids, and invalid attributes (not obsolete, they must be be using them like data-*).
- arp242 2y ago
  None of which are serious errors. Certainly not the type that introduce rendering errors.

Aardwolf 2y ago

Yet its pages load much faster than most websites, no cookie popups, no "subscribe to our newsletter" slide-ins, no phenomenon where the content loads but then a second later the page resets and re-loads the content again (probably with more ads or something), no images only getting loaded and popping in view while you scroll (rather than do it a bit predicatively beforehand so they'd pop in outside of your view to give a less slow impression), etc...

sitharus 2y ago
I don’t understand how that’s at odds with having spec-valid HTML and CSS
- Aardwolf 2y ago
  Because updating to become conformant might come with the risk of making it a "modern" overhaul :/
  - noobermin 2y ago
    So, I'm fearful of that as most people here, but if any entity can manage a respectful update, it has to be someone Y Combinator can pay.
  - jraph 2y ago
    You don't need > no cookie popups, no "subscribe to our newsletter" slide-ins, no phenomenon where the content loads but then a second later the page resets and re-loads the content again (probably with more ads or something) to fix rendering layout using tables and cell width to render comment levels. Just a few lines of CSS and Arc really. That would be a big overhaul only because HN is very small, but not that big in absolute.
    - rwalle 2y ago
      And I just want a reasonable font size. On desktop it is miserable -- I always need to zoom to 133% to match the font size I see on other websites. On mobile it is ok.
      - perilunar 2y ago
        I find it way too small on desktop, but it's not an issue because the browser remembers my zoom level. But I also find it too small on my mobile, and increasing the font size doesn't improve things, just makes it necessary to scroll sideways to read the comments. Overall the font size settings on HN are crap. I really wish @dang would listen to the frequent complaints and fix them.

bastawhiz 2y ago

The HTML is immaterial. If it parses into the correct DOM (which, by all accounts, it does), there's no reason why the HTML should affect how the CSS renders.

its-summertime 2y ago
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/parsing.html https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/parsing.html I really love the length of this page.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  Lives up to its category of "multi page"!
runarberg 2y ago
The table based layout is a nightmare for assistive technology though. I can’t even imagine how users who rely on assistive technology use this site (of which I know there are indeed plenty). A semantically correct HTML would be something like a frontpage with an <ol> and the comment section would be a series of nested <article> each with a <header> containing the author a <time> and an extra bonus if the parent/context/sibling links can go under a <nav>. And the separators between the header elements should not be a text content pipe character `|` but rather a CSS border-inline-start: 1px solid currentcolor; A minimal and semantically correct HTML does not only offer superior experience for users of assistive technology, it also make your page machine readable, so users can install browser plugins to e.g. do something useful with the <time> element, and ultimately makes your page much easier to style with CSS.

fallingknife 2y ago

If you remove trivial errors for no space between attributes, table formatting, and use of "obsolete" inline styling instead of CSS it really isn't many. Could be cleaned up with a couple days engineering time or less.

its-summertime 2y ago
I think most people could clean it up within a day, maybe two at most. Whoever is currently maintaining the codebase has taken years. They have been making changes to the HTML of the site: SVGs were added for the voting arrows as the first example I can think of, so its not like its being left to languish completely. They just don't care.