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That kind of sounds like saying that talking about "electricity" is superfluous when describing how chemical batteries work, because it's all about ions. Yeah,

That kind of sounds like saying that talking about "electricity" is superfluous when describing how chemical batteries work, because it's all about ions. Yeah, sure... but both are totally relevant?

adrian_b 2y ago
Given a state described by the distributions in space of the various kinds of ions, you can compute the distribution in space of the electric potential. Therefore including the electric potential in the state is superfluous. Given the distribution in space of the electric potential, you cannot compute the entire state, which includes the distributions in space of many kinds of ions, simply because there are many kinds of ions. Only when there had been a single kind of ions, it would have been possible to describe the state using the electric potential. All the ions move continuously through very complex circuits comprising a network of pores through the cellular membranes. Through some of the pores the movement is "passive" i.e. for each kind of ion that may pass through a given kind of pore the ionic current is determined by both the local gradient of the concentration of that kind of ion and the local gradient of the electric potential. This is the only place where the electric potential matters. Through other kinds of pores, the ion transport is "active", i.e. the so-called ionic pumps move certain kinds of ions regardless of the gradients of the ionic concentrations and of the electric potential (within certain limits, too large gradients can block an ionic pump). If you want to simulate the ionic current network of an entire organism, you must compute the electric potential inside the simulation. When you observe a living organism, measuring the electric potential is much easier than measuring directly any kind of ion concentration and in many cases one can estimate the ionic concentrations of interest from the measured electric potential and from additional information. While accounting for the electric interactions inside an organism is essential, talking about a "bioelectric" state of an organism that would determine its development is just meaningless pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. "Bioelectricity" is an appropriate term when discussing the electric sense organs or the electric weapons of various animals, where the side-effect of the generation of electric potential differences by differences in ion concentrations is exploited in such a way that the effect is cumulative over large ensembles of cells.

That kind of sounds like saying that talking about "electricity" is superfluous when describing how chemical batteries work, because it's all about ions. Yeah, sure... but both are totally relevant?

adrian_b 2y ago

Given a state described by the distributions in space of the various kinds of ions, you can compute the distribution in space of the electric potential. Therefore including the electric potential in the state is superfluous. Given the distribution in space of the electric potential, you cannot compute the entire state, which includes the distributions in space of many kinds of ions, simply because there are many kinds of ions. Only when there had been a single kind of ions, it would have been possible to describe the state using the electric potential. All the ions move continuously through very complex circuits comprising a network of pores through the cellular membranes. Through some of the pores the movement is "passive" i.e. for each kind of ion that may pass through a given kind of pore the ionic current is determined by both the local gradient of the concentration of that kind of ion and the local gradient of the electric potential. This is the only place where the electric potential matters. Through other kinds of pores, the ion transport is "active", i.e. the so-called ionic pumps move certain kinds of ions regardless of the gradients of the ionic concentrations and of the electric potential (within certain limits, too large gradients can block an ionic pump). If you want to simulate the ionic current network of an entire organism, you must compute the electric potential inside the simulation. When you observe a living organism, measuring the electric potential is much easier than measuring directly any kind of ion concentration and in many cases one can estimate the ionic concentrations of interest from the measured electric potential and from additional information. While accounting for the electric interactions inside an organism is essential, talking about a "bioelectric" state of an organism that would determine its development is just meaningless pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. "Bioelectricity" is an appropriate term when discussing the electric sense organs or the electric weapons of various animals, where the side-effect of the generation of electric potential differences by differences in ion concentrations is exploited in such a way that the effect is cumulative over large ensembles of cells.