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I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way

I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way we evolved: e.g. office-based daily tasks instead of walking and hunting, foods fabricated to stimulate us instead of what we could find in nature, high buildings and cities with sound/light/air pollution instead of a calm, clean nature, always trying to "optimize for time/money" instead of slow living etc. all eventually end us up in a mentally and physically depleted state. The problem is that none of those factors alone have a direct visible effect, but they accumulate together over years, so it's hard to quantify a specific factor in an isolated manner. As long as we don't change out lifestyle to something simpler fundamentally, I doubt we can really solve problems with any kind of drugs or medical tests etc. I hope a holistic approach will take us back to who we really are, which would gradually solve our both mental and physical health problems.

tredigi 2y ago
You may be over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer times. It wasnt all just a nice summer evening where people did a nice walk in the forest after chilling at the beach. Life was rough, often it was cold and rainy, people were hungry and every little injury could easily mean a horrible death. Constantly worrying how to fill your stomach without getting killed by wolves or a tiger (or a rival tribe) or breaking your foot, or some deity being unhappy with you and sending a thunderstorm. Can't just pop a pill when you have pains or can't sleep. True, mental health likely wasn't much of an issue. But the other issues you got in exchange...
- can16358p 2y ago
  Of course. I never meant that it was all fun and chill, perhaps life was much harder, and perhaps our brains evolved to cope with that and when there are no natural threats it errs.
ImHereToVote 2y ago
Contemporary systems are an organism to themselves. Guided by natural "artificial" selection. Corporations are like aliens trying to terraform the social landscape so they can survive. I can't image what it will be like when they become even more autonomous.
- r2_pilot 2y ago
  In fact, the original concept of a corporation was that they were created for a specific purpose and then dissolved once completed. In a way, the fact that modern corporations don't do that is analogous to how cancer is mutated cells that don't stop growing, even to the detriment of the host.
  - namaria 2y ago
    > In fact, the original concept of a corporation was that they were created for a specific purpose and then dissolved once completed You're wrong there. One of the original corporations grew to become the sovereign power over a whole sub continent and eventually got nationalized into a colonial administration. Another original corporation had a para military mandate and conducted large scale open ended naval warfare in three different continents.
- keiferski 2y ago
  I’ve always found it interesting how the word corporation is traced back to the Latin for body, corpus. As in Corpus Christi, the body of Christ, or the word corpse. There is something very organic about the word’s etymology which becomes even more compelling considering the role of corporations in the future of life on this planet.
knallfrosch 2y ago
100% agree. You need to cook your food. You need to exert energy to move (walk, run, or cycle instead of car.) You need to communicate face-to-face, instead of with a screen. Swimming is such a great feeling that I've never seen someone worry about an email while doing it. If you drive your car to a desk job where you sit in a zoom meeting all day and then stuff your face with food you bought, you're going to crash and burn. If your "hobbies" involve "Netflix", you've got a problem.
- ownagefool 2y ago
  Physical and mental well-being are likely linked. Take for example a diet that causes gut problems, which then causes anxiety to manifest physically, which result in anti-depressant medication, which you guessed it, cause gut problems. However, when a raise in mental-health issues correlate with a an inequality crisis, de-funding of mental health services, and lowering of national food standards ( UK, Brexit, Austerity ), maybe it's not so much that we can't sit in offices, but rather balance has simply been stripped for profit.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    Mens sana in corpore sano (a healthy mind in a healthy body) Juvenal - 2nd century AD
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    I feel like inequality is often used as a sort of scape goat in topics like this. The reason is that though we obviously have inequality that's in raw numbers substantially greater than ever before, it's also a very different form than in the past. In the past being poor meant you were probably living in makeshift housing, had no 'privileges' like plumbing or clean water, and could easily slip into genuine starvation if things got even slightly worse. In modern times, obesity is one of the biggest health issues among the poor. The poor of times past would think we're living in a utopia. And in terms of "stuff" we probably are, but it doesn't feel like a utopia because it obviously isn't. Current times are probably the best evidence imaginable that all of the things we relatively ignore in terms of quality of life (family, nature, philosophy/purpose, and so on) are, at the minimum, no less important than the things we obsess over like income, education, and sexuality.
nonrandomstring 2y ago
> a holistic approach will take us back to who we really are Epistemology - stuff we know about knowledge - never really moved into the psychological and political. Study some and you'll hear all about "justified true beliefs" and so on. A lot of what we call science is built on this foundation. But there are things we know, and can prove, but cannot say. John Bowlby wrote on "knowing what you are not supposed to know and feeling what you are not supposed to feel" [0] Therefore science built on partial epistemology must also remain partial. All science is inherently political; medicine and digital technologies are shining examples. This blockage, where we spend our energy in modernity pretending, avoiding, finding reasons to believe in things we know are abhorrent, defending our ego against insecurity... means we get overworked with moral labour. It's exhausting just to doom-scroll with one finger and get out of bed to work for some shitty company that's ruining the planet. Many people start to feel better when they have some sort of epiphany, breakdown, break-through and just start being more honest. More honest with themselves. More honest with others. You lose friends, but you gain new ones [1]. You lose a job, but you get a better one, for you. Rather than meeting resistance and disagreement, you find that "everybody knows" [2]. I think that honesty is the key to mental health. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/487334/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/487334/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Both_Sides,_Now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Both_Sides,_Now [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Knows_(Leonard_Cohen_song) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Knows_(Leonard_Cohen...
hoseja 2y ago
It's a result of societal competition. The people most able to survive and breed in these hostile harsh conditions will sadly inherit the Earth. You can't slow down or the Red Queen bulldozes you.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
lynx23 2y ago
[flagged]
- Almondsetat 2y ago
  Changing your environment is one of the best things you can do and this has been shown countless times. For example, it is paramount for an alcoholic to get rid of any trace of alcohol in his home and any other frequented places. Do you perhaps believe that instead he should just "get his act together" and through "sheer will" ignore the temptation of alcohol even if he is surrounded by it 24/7?
- martin293 2y ago
  > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Also, > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
  - jan3024 2y ago
    [dead]
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  Are you really going to shit on people for failing because we've turned society to "hard mode"? Imagine it's suddenly the zombie apocalypse - are you gonna victim blame people for not having a bunker, years of saved food and an arsenal of anti-zombie arms ready to go?
- srid 2y ago
  It may well take humanity a few more decades before they, en masse, come to terms with the fact that, in the end, it is the human condition itself (not the environment) that needs to change. The environment is fine ... more than fine in fact, would anyone really want to go back to "the old times" if they were to be honest?
tsobral 2y ago
This. In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live. Our bodies and brains evolved and adapted through thousands and thousands of years. With plenty of outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time to exercise creativity and arts, and specially, the lack of continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  > In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live... outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time It's more like 100 years for this division. > continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world Is anxiety artificial? 400k years ago, humanity emerges. 40k years ago we finish raping and murdering the last of our close ancestors off the face of the earth (Neandertals and Densovians). It's not like we settled down after that. What are the founding stories for Rome: one brother kills another then go one town over a kidnap some wives (rape of the sabine women). I picked Rome because the Pax Romana was 200 years of peace. ON the back of mass professionalized violence (the Legion). It wasnt exactly a time of ease and abundance out side the select few. The last dual in America was less than 200 years ago. 2 generations ago you were lucky to make it out of a major war... the ones we have had since have been mild and voluntary. We live in a time of abundance, ease, and calm in comparison to history. No bears are going to eat us. No one is going to come in and burn the village down. We're not worried about starving. Or war... the "plague" was a bit upsetting but in the grand scheme of things it didn't kill a lot of us. Are we supposed to be anxious and stressed for real reasons, are we programed to be that way, and are now freaking out over minor things because we have gotten rid of all the major ones?
  - reverius42 2y ago
    > 2 generations ago you were lucky to make it out of a major war... the ones we have had since have been mild and voluntary. That's only true if you're talking specifically about US-involved wars, from the US side of things. For a lot of people, the Iraq War (for instance) was neither mild nor voluntary.
guerrilla 2y ago
This is an important part of the story and I agree that it accounts for most mental illness but certainly not all. Illnesses such as schizophrenia and autism exist and while society can make them worse, there are obviously strong biological components.
mypastself 2y ago
Is there any evidence indicating that mental health issues have increased during this period? Or that there is higher incidence in more developed nations?
ruszki 2y ago
I’m quite sure that there is (at least some) truth in this. I’ve been travelling in Italy for a month now. Around and below Napoli, there is something which I cannot grasp, which seemed very calming. It’s slower somehow, and way more enjoyable, than north Italy. Even parts of north Italy which are very “chill”, and where “nothing really happens”. One for sure: south Italy lifestyle is definitely closer to slow living than any “slow living” part of the north. Even Napoli on some level.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gkoz 2y ago
You appreciate "calm, clean nature" from the perspective of a technological civilization with most of the basic needs met. On its own it can just be a lot of boring nothingness with or without back-breaking labor. Perhaps "optimizing for time/money" is as much who we really are as slow living and you're just ignoring the other half.
Ladywood 2y ago
Someone once told me something thought provoking - we as a species have never spent so much time away from touching the ground, it's almost as if it is lava. We spend 1/3 of the day sleeping in beds, raised off the floor, sometimes in apartments 10s of metres away from the ground. We spend 1/3 of the day working in artificial offices, sat on chairs, 10s of metres away from the ground. The other 1/3 of the day we may be sat in cars/ other transport raised from the ground, sat at tables, sat on our sofas, in our flats doing chores etc. Even if we are walking from A to B, if you are a city dweller, you're probably still walking on tarmac separated with the rubber soles on your shoes. He then asked when the last time I touched grass or soil with the soles of my feet (or even with my hands). At the time it was about April in London, so just coming out of winter. I think the last time I had honestly walked barefoot on grass/soil was possibly September - and I LOVE the outdoors, go running/ hiking often, very active lifestyle etc. We have grown so far away from how we evolved, so quickly, and most of us are completely unaware of it. So yes, I ditto your comment - modern society, its stimulus and it's constant FOMO orientation, is absolutely causing our issues today. I couldn't afford to buy a property in London with a garden to address this issue, so subsequently moved up to North Leeds. I now ensure I am outside in my bare feet at least once or twice a week regardless of the weather. This morning I spent five minutes walking through a stream barefoot to the base of a local waterfall, listening to the birds, playing with my dog, feeling the nature, and wow do I feel happy and focused today as a result. Megacity life if killing us.
silverquiet 2y ago
I've always felt this way, and while I never thought I was alone exactly (the documentary, Koyaanisqatsi, literally translated as "life out of balance" suggests that some have come to this realization before I was even born), but I thought that perhaps others were better able to deal with modernity than I. That is probably true to some extent, but increasingly I think that most people are affected but aren't as conscious of the reasons for their malaise. Also, a lot of people still seem to be able to believe in religion (I'm sadly not one of them) which seems to help them.
konschubert 2y ago
Do you believe that people were happier in pre-modern times?

tredigi 2y ago

You may be over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer times. It wasnt all just a nice summer evening where people did a nice walk in the forest after chilling at the beach. Life was rough, often it was cold and rainy, people were hungry and every little injury could easily mean a horrible death. Constantly worrying how to fill your stomach without getting killed by wolves or a tiger (or a rival tribe) or breaking your foot, or some deity being unhappy with you and sending a thunderstorm. Can't just pop a pill when you have pains or can't sleep. True, mental health likely wasn't much of an issue. But the other issues you got in exchange...

can16358p 2y ago
Of course. I never meant that it was all fun and chill, perhaps life was much harder, and perhaps our brains evolved to cope with that and when there are no natural threats it errs.

ImHereToVote 2y ago

Contemporary systems are an organism to themselves. Guided by natural "artificial" selection. Corporations are like aliens trying to terraform the social landscape so they can survive. I can't image what it will be like when they become even more autonomous.

r2_pilot 2y ago
In fact, the original concept of a corporation was that they were created for a specific purpose and then dissolved once completed. In a way, the fact that modern corporations don't do that is analogous to how cancer is mutated cells that don't stop growing, even to the detriment of the host.
- namaria 2y ago
  > In fact, the original concept of a corporation was that they were created for a specific purpose and then dissolved once completed You're wrong there. One of the original corporations grew to become the sovereign power over a whole sub continent and eventually got nationalized into a colonial administration. Another original corporation had a para military mandate and conducted large scale open ended naval warfare in three different continents.
keiferski 2y ago
I’ve always found it interesting how the word corporation is traced back to the Latin for body, corpus. As in Corpus Christi, the body of Christ, or the word corpse. There is something very organic about the word’s etymology which becomes even more compelling considering the role of corporations in the future of life on this planet.

knallfrosch 2y ago

100% agree. You need to cook your food. You need to exert energy to move (walk, run, or cycle instead of car.) You need to communicate face-to-face, instead of with a screen. Swimming is such a great feeling that I've never seen someone worry about an email while doing it. If you drive your car to a desk job where you sit in a zoom meeting all day and then stuff your face with food you bought, you're going to crash and burn. If your "hobbies" involve "Netflix", you've got a problem.

ownagefool 2y ago
Physical and mental well-being are likely linked. Take for example a diet that causes gut problems, which then causes anxiety to manifest physically, which result in anti-depressant medication, which you guessed it, cause gut problems. However, when a raise in mental-health issues correlate with a an inequality crisis, de-funding of mental health services, and lowering of national food standards ( UK, Brexit, Austerity ), maybe it's not so much that we can't sit in offices, but rather balance has simply been stripped for profit.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  Mens sana in corpore sano (a healthy mind in a healthy body) Juvenal - 2nd century AD
- somenameforme 2y ago
  I feel like inequality is often used as a sort of scape goat in topics like this. The reason is that though we obviously have inequality that's in raw numbers substantially greater than ever before, it's also a very different form than in the past. In the past being poor meant you were probably living in makeshift housing, had no 'privileges' like plumbing or clean water, and could easily slip into genuine starvation if things got even slightly worse. In modern times, obesity is one of the biggest health issues among the poor. The poor of times past would think we're living in a utopia. And in terms of "stuff" we probably are, but it doesn't feel like a utopia because it obviously isn't. Current times are probably the best evidence imaginable that all of the things we relatively ignore in terms of quality of life (family, nature, philosophy/purpose, and so on) are, at the minimum, no less important than the things we obsess over like income, education, and sexuality.

nonrandomstring 2y ago

> a holistic approach will take us back to who we really are Epistemology - stuff we know about knowledge - never really moved into the psychological and political. Study some and you'll hear all about "justified true beliefs" and so on. A lot of what we call science is built on this foundation. But there are things we know, and can prove, but cannot say. John Bowlby wrote on "knowing what you are not supposed to know and feeling what you are not supposed to feel" [0] Therefore science built on partial epistemology must also remain partial. All science is inherently political; medicine and digital technologies are shining examples. This blockage, where we spend our energy in modernity pretending, avoiding, finding reasons to believe in things we know are abhorrent, defending our ego against insecurity... means we get overworked with moral labour. It's exhausting just to doom-scroll with one finger and get out of bed to work for some shitty company that's ruining the planet. Many people start to feel better when they have some sort of epiphany, breakdown, break-through and just start being more honest. More honest with themselves. More honest with others. You lose friends, but you gain new ones [1]. You lose a job, but you get a better one, for you. Rather than meeting resistance and disagreement, you find that "everybody knows" [2]. I think that honesty is the key to mental health. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/487334/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/487334/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Both_Sides,_Now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Both_Sides,_Now [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Knows_(Leonard_Cohen_song) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Knows_(Leonard_Cohen...

hoseja 2y ago

It's a result of societal competition. The people most able to survive and breed in these hostile harsh conditions will sadly inherit the Earth. You can't slow down or the Red Queen bulldozes you.

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]

lynx23 2y ago

[flagged]

Almondsetat 2y ago
Changing your environment is one of the best things you can do and this has been shown countless times. For example, it is paramount for an alcoholic to get rid of any trace of alcohol in his home and any other frequented places. Do you perhaps believe that instead he should just "get his act together" and through "sheer will" ignore the temptation of alcohol even if he is surrounded by it 24/7?
martin293 2y ago
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Also, > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
- jan3024 2y ago
  [dead]
CuriouslyC 2y ago
Are you really going to shit on people for failing because we've turned society to "hard mode"? Imagine it's suddenly the zombie apocalypse - are you gonna victim blame people for not having a bunker, years of saved food and an arsenal of anti-zombie arms ready to go?
srid 2y ago
It may well take humanity a few more decades before they, en masse, come to terms with the fact that, in the end, it is the human condition itself (not the environment) that needs to change. The environment is fine ... more than fine in fact, would anyone really want to go back to "the old times" if they were to be honest?

tsobral 2y ago

This. In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live. Our bodies and brains evolved and adapted through thousands and thousands of years. With plenty of outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time to exercise creativity and arts, and specially, the lack of continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world.

zer00eyz 2y ago
> In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live... outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time It's more like 100 years for this division. > continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world Is anxiety artificial? 400k years ago, humanity emerges. 40k years ago we finish raping and murdering the last of our close ancestors off the face of the earth (Neandertals and Densovians). It's not like we settled down after that. What are the founding stories for Rome: one brother kills another then go one town over a kidnap some wives (rape of the sabine women). I picked Rome because the Pax Romana was 200 years of peace. ON the back of mass professionalized violence (the Legion). It wasnt exactly a time of ease and abundance out side the select few. The last dual in America was less than 200 years ago. 2 generations ago you were lucky to make it out of a major war... the ones we have had since have been mild and voluntary. We live in a time of abundance, ease, and calm in comparison to history. No bears are going to eat us. No one is going to come in and burn the village down. We're not worried about starving. Or war... the "plague" was a bit upsetting but in the grand scheme of things it didn't kill a lot of us. Are we supposed to be anxious and stressed for real reasons, are we programed to be that way, and are now freaking out over minor things because we have gotten rid of all the major ones?
- reverius42 2y ago
  > 2 generations ago you were lucky to make it out of a major war... the ones we have had since have been mild and voluntary. That's only true if you're talking specifically about US-involved wars, from the US side of things. For a lot of people, the Iraq War (for instance) was neither mild nor voluntary.

guerrilla 2y ago

This is an important part of the story and I agree that it accounts for most mental illness but certainly not all. Illnesses such as schizophrenia and autism exist and while society can make them worse, there are obviously strong biological components.

mypastself 2y ago

Is there any evidence indicating that mental health issues have increased during this period? Or that there is higher incidence in more developed nations?

ruszki 2y ago

I’m quite sure that there is (at least some) truth in this. I’ve been travelling in Italy for a month now. Around and below Napoli, there is something which I cannot grasp, which seemed very calming. It’s slower somehow, and way more enjoyable, than north Italy. Even parts of north Italy which are very “chill”, and where “nothing really happens”. One for sure: south Italy lifestyle is definitely closer to slow living than any “slow living” part of the north. Even Napoli on some level.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

gkoz 2y ago

You appreciate "calm, clean nature" from the perspective of a technological civilization with most of the basic needs met. On its own it can just be a lot of boring nothingness with or without back-breaking labor. Perhaps "optimizing for time/money" is as much who we really are as slow living and you're just ignoring the other half.

Ladywood 2y ago

Someone once told me something thought provoking - we as a species have never spent so much time away from touching the ground, it's almost as if it is lava. We spend 1/3 of the day sleeping in beds, raised off the floor, sometimes in apartments 10s of metres away from the ground. We spend 1/3 of the day working in artificial offices, sat on chairs, 10s of metres away from the ground. The other 1/3 of the day we may be sat in cars/ other transport raised from the ground, sat at tables, sat on our sofas, in our flats doing chores etc. Even if we are walking from A to B, if you are a city dweller, you're probably still walking on tarmac separated with the rubber soles on your shoes. He then asked when the last time I touched grass or soil with the soles of my feet (or even with my hands). At the time it was about April in London, so just coming out of winter. I think the last time I had honestly walked barefoot on grass/soil was possibly September - and I LOVE the outdoors, go running/ hiking often, very active lifestyle etc. We have grown so far away from how we evolved, so quickly, and most of us are completely unaware of it. So yes, I ditto your comment - modern society, its stimulus and it's constant FOMO orientation, is absolutely causing our issues today. I couldn't afford to buy a property in London with a garden to address this issue, so subsequently moved up to North Leeds. I now ensure I am outside in my bare feet at least once or twice a week regardless of the weather. This morning I spent five minutes walking through a stream barefoot to the base of a local waterfall, listening to the birds, playing with my dog, feeling the nature, and wow do I feel happy and focused today as a result. Megacity life if killing us.

silverquiet 2y ago

I've always felt this way, and while I never thought I was alone exactly (the documentary, Koyaanisqatsi, literally translated as "life out of balance" suggests that some have come to this realization before I was even born), but I thought that perhaps others were better able to deal with modernity than I. That is probably true to some extent, but increasingly I think that most people are affected but aren't as conscious of the reasons for their malaise. Also, a lot of people still seem to be able to believe in religion (I'm sadly not one of them) which seems to help them.

konschubert 2y ago

Do you believe that people were happier in pre-modern times?