6 ms·

> dmv.org lived by Google and, it seems, it will die by Google. Several SEO blogs report that, sometime in 2019, Google seems to have applied aggressive manual

by m463 2y ago

> dmv.org lived by Google and, it seems, it will die by Google. Several SEO blogs report that, sometime in 2019, Google seems to have applied aggressive manual adjustments to a list of government-agency-like domain names that include irs.com (its whole own story) and dmv.org. Their search traffic almost instantaneously dropped by 80%. lol, that's funny and ironic. Honestly, I think it's because they are competing with google ITSELF. Google has gotten to the point that it is intricately interwoven into the official websites, like www.dmv.ca.gov and www.ftb.ca.gov and www.irs.gov google wants you to go to the real government websites and it gets the data.

bee_rider 2y ago
I’m as happy to trash google as anyone else here, but we must admit that providing the government site when somebody searches dmv or irs the right thing to do. Should these government sites be using google? No. But regardless, Google should put them first.
- travoc 2y ago
  That depends. Does the government website have the answer to the question in the query? Often it does not.
  - lambertsimnel 2y ago
    Here in the UK, we have a problem of disreputable businesses - I'm not sure that they're actually illegal - charging fees for government services They aren't really providing a service, but they're getting between confused people and public services Consumer finance journalists complain a lot about their sites appearing before the real thing in search results
    - faet 2y ago
      We have this in the US. Open a business and you'll get spammed with a lot of providers offering stuff that is either free, un needed, or overpriced. "You need this sign in your break room else you'll be fined $10,000! Just subscribe for $299/year and we'll mail you labor posters each year." These can be found for like $10 and don't change yearly. "This form needs to be filed else you'll be fined! Pay us $499 and we'll take care of it!" Free to file online. Even forming a business in my state is like 2 forms and $125 and can be done all online. But if you were to google how to, you'd find all these people to "Help out" and it'd end up costing you $1000-2000 for their "Help".
      - rob74 2y ago
        As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted, and there are many that would like to facilitate this process...
        ryandrake 2y ago
        I don't think society should treat "Stupidity Arbitrage" as an acceptable business model. These guys are predators, exactly like scammers that call up elderly people and try to get them to buy gift cards. We should have a clearly defined regulatory framework to get rid of them.
        fragmede 2y ago
        How do you diffentiate stupidity arbitrage from lazy arbitrage though? Food delivery is super convenient.
        lambertsimnel 2y ago
        I don't know how reliably you can distinguish between stupidity arbitrage and lazy arbitrage, and there might be grey areas, but if it's actually more convenient it's probably lazy arbitrage and if it's easily confused with a service it's reselling it's probably stupidity arbitrage I'd like to distinguish between those that bring services closer to customers and those that hinder customers getting to the services they intend to use
        talldayo 2y ago
        As long as a free market exists, there will still be a stupid tax. That's just what happens when you let people sell other people stuff through marketing and advertising, you fill the gap between "expected utility" and "realized value" with lies. White lies, not like "our product will fly you to the moon" but unrealistic stuff like "the Humane AI pin will read you recipes while you cook!" The Humane pin will be dead in a drawer in 6 weeks; the people selling that know full-well they don't have market fit. The worse practice IMO is exploiting a captive audience. It doesn't matter how stupid you are if you're an Apple developer or an Oracle customer; these companies will bleed you dry for simply touching their product. The only path of recourse is antitrust settlement, which is a lengthy and unnecessary process that is inherently stacked in the favor of whoever can hire more lawyers. Because of this, companies have no motivation to improve a paid product. Instead, the goal is to make you reliant on it somehow and then increase the price. We see this in Netflix, Amazon Prime, Windows/Office365/OneDrive, Apple developer program/Apple One/iCloud/App Store, and YouTube's TV/subscription services. The most successful businesses in our daily lives are the ones that have dug their claws into us and refuse to be anything other than a parasite.
  - bastawhiz 2y ago
    The moment you allow someone to rank above a government site for something the government site should do, you create the incentive to profit from that position. Answering a question is probably harmless, but scrolling an extra 300 pixels is also harmless. At worst, consumers get scammed into paying for services they are entitled to for free (with a worse quality of service). Sometimes hundreds or thousands of dollars. It's not hypothetical, it's already happening.
  - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
    > That depends. Does the government website have the answer to the question in the query? Dodgy site that appears so correct you enter your private info < legit gov portal. True even if gov site could be better designed.
  - eddieroger 2y ago
    > Often it does not. Then we need to fix that problem, not make it OK for it to exist. A government site should be the source of truth on information about governmental affairs, or relevant to this article, if I search for "$STATE DMV", I should end up there first. If I search "how do I register my car in $STATE", that answer should also come from a governmental site.
  - kbenson 2y ago
    Every time I search up a DMV question I get a DMV FAQ link that answers my question. Nine out of ten times when researching a tax question (I do my own taxes) I get a link to the IRS or the franchise tax board for my state with the specific directions I need. When I'm searching for in for that the ultimate answer is coming from a government entity, usually it's because I want authoritative information, and I'm not willing to rely on a third party hopefully getting it right. The only thing I want from Google when making these searches is to deep link me into the appropriate section of the official site. The only reason I'll visit a third party site is if I don't have a good official link and I'm hoping to get a clue to refine my search by reading specific laws or statute id's they might reference, since I'm not going to make tax filing decisions or assume directions given regarding a DMV process are correct from some random online website.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I think I disagree actually, if I’m looking for info from a government agency I would rather see the absence of information on the government site, and explore from there. Possible see why I misunderstood the what regulations I have to follow or how I misunderstood what services the government provides. That’s much better than somebody’s (even well intended) best guess or interpretation.
squigz 2y ago
> Google has gotten to the point that it is intricately interwoven into the official websites, like www.dmv.ca.gov and www.ftb.ca.gov and www.irs.gov Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? I visited dmv.ca.gov and nothing stood out to me?
- graemep 2y ago
  It uses Google Analytics, loads a bunch of Youtube videos on the front page, loads static files from Google etc.
yegle 2y ago
Now we just need Google to give websites like w3cschools and geeksforgeeks a lower rank, and give python.org, go.dev, MDN, w3.org higher rank.
- jseutter 2y ago
  I was recently surprised how bad Google results had gotten. Way back when I used Python heavily a google search would return results from python.org. When my kids were learning python for uni I told them the python online docs were great, but my daughter disagreed. I asked her to show me what she meant and she showed me her google search - the first page of links contained no hits for python.org results. She thought python online docs were crap like geeksforgeeks. It was one of those moments when you realize the world has changed around you since the last time you looked.
  - citizenpaul 2y ago
    I've always been a critic of the algorithm over curation for search. Cheap low effort content has always been orders of magnitude easier to generate than real quality content. The only way to prevent declines of the real content is to put a wall(curation) around serious information providers so they cannot be gamified out of the way by bad actors. Embracing Googles "battle it out" style of search results has been a net harm to the quality of searching for information. If the world stuck with the slower but ultimately finite method of curating quality providers we would have an amazing set of resources instead of spam blogs.
- lucasban 2y ago
  At least with Kagi you can manually adjust the ranking of certain domains
- hanniabu 2y ago
  I actually love w3schools as a quick reference or to use their sandbox to test something out
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by m463 2y ago

bee_rider 2y ago

I’m as happy to trash google as anyone else here, but we must admit that providing the government site when somebody searches dmv or irs the right thing to do. Should these government sites be using google? No. But regardless, Google should put them first.

travoc 2y ago
That depends. Does the government website have the answer to the question in the query? Often it does not.
- lambertsimnel 2y ago
  Here in the UK, we have a problem of disreputable businesses - I'm not sure that they're actually illegal - charging fees for government services They aren't really providing a service, but they're getting between confused people and public services Consumer finance journalists complain a lot about their sites appearing before the real thing in search results
  - faet 2y ago
    We have this in the US. Open a business and you'll get spammed with a lot of providers offering stuff that is either free, un needed, or overpriced. "You need this sign in your break room else you'll be fined $10,000! Just subscribe for $299/year and we'll mail you labor posters each year." These can be found for like $10 and don't change yearly. "This form needs to be filed else you'll be fined! Pay us $499 and we'll take care of it!" Free to file online. Even forming a business in my state is like 2 forms and $125 and can be done all online. But if you were to google how to, you'd find all these people to "Help out" and it'd end up costing you $1000-2000 for their "Help".
    - rob74 2y ago
      As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted, and there are many that would like to facilitate this process...
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        I don't think society should treat "Stupidity Arbitrage" as an acceptable business model. These guys are predators, exactly like scammers that call up elderly people and try to get them to buy gift cards. We should have a clearly defined regulatory framework to get rid of them.
        fragmede 2y ago
        How do you diffentiate stupidity arbitrage from lazy arbitrage though? Food delivery is super convenient.
        lambertsimnel 2y ago
        I don't know how reliably you can distinguish between stupidity arbitrage and lazy arbitrage, and there might be grey areas, but if it's actually more convenient it's probably lazy arbitrage and if it's easily confused with a service it's reselling it's probably stupidity arbitrage I'd like to distinguish between those that bring services closer to customers and those that hinder customers getting to the services they intend to use
        talldayo 2y ago
        As long as a free market exists, there will still be a stupid tax. That's just what happens when you let people sell other people stuff through marketing and advertising, you fill the gap between "expected utility" and "realized value" with lies. White lies, not like "our product will fly you to the moon" but unrealistic stuff like "the Humane AI pin will read you recipes while you cook!" The Humane pin will be dead in a drawer in 6 weeks; the people selling that know full-well they don't have market fit. The worse practice IMO is exploiting a captive audience. It doesn't matter how stupid you are if you're an Apple developer or an Oracle customer; these companies will bleed you dry for simply touching their product. The only path of recourse is antitrust settlement, which is a lengthy and unnecessary process that is inherently stacked in the favor of whoever can hire more lawyers. Because of this, companies have no motivation to improve a paid product. Instead, the goal is to make you reliant on it somehow and then increase the price. We see this in Netflix, Amazon Prime, Windows/Office365/OneDrive, Apple developer program/Apple One/iCloud/App Store, and YouTube's TV/subscription services. The most successful businesses in our daily lives are the ones that have dug their claws into us and refuse to be anything other than a parasite.
- bastawhiz 2y ago
  The moment you allow someone to rank above a government site for something the government site should do, you create the incentive to profit from that position. Answering a question is probably harmless, but scrolling an extra 300 pixels is also harmless. At worst, consumers get scammed into paying for services they are entitled to for free (with a worse quality of service). Sometimes hundreds or thousands of dollars. It's not hypothetical, it's already happening.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > That depends. Does the government website have the answer to the question in the query? Dodgy site that appears so correct you enter your private info < legit gov portal. True even if gov site could be better designed.
- eddieroger 2y ago
  > Often it does not. Then we need to fix that problem, not make it OK for it to exist. A government site should be the source of truth on information about governmental affairs, or relevant to this article, if I search for "$STATE DMV", I should end up there first. If I search "how do I register my car in $STATE", that answer should also come from a governmental site.
- kbenson 2y ago
  Every time I search up a DMV question I get a DMV FAQ link that answers my question. Nine out of ten times when researching a tax question (I do my own taxes) I get a link to the IRS or the franchise tax board for my state with the specific directions I need. When I'm searching for in for that the ultimate answer is coming from a government entity, usually it's because I want authoritative information, and I'm not willing to rely on a third party hopefully getting it right. The only thing I want from Google when making these searches is to deep link me into the appropriate section of the official site. The only reason I'll visit a third party site is if I don't have a good official link and I'm hoping to get a clue to refine my search by reading specific laws or statute id's they might reference, since I'm not going to make tax filing decisions or assume directions given regarding a DMV process are correct from some random online website.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I think I disagree actually, if I’m looking for info from a government agency I would rather see the absence of information on the government site, and explore from there. Possible see why I misunderstood the what regulations I have to follow or how I misunderstood what services the government provides. That’s much better than somebody’s (even well intended) best guess or interpretation.

squigz 2y ago

> Google has gotten to the point that it is intricately interwoven into the official websites, like www.dmv.ca.gov and www.ftb.ca.gov and www.irs.gov Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? I visited dmv.ca.gov and nothing stood out to me?

graemep 2y ago
It uses Google Analytics, loads a bunch of Youtube videos on the front page, loads static files from Google etc.

yegle 2y ago

Now we just need Google to give websites like w3cschools and geeksforgeeks a lower rank, and give python.org, go.dev, MDN, w3.org higher rank.

jseutter 2y ago
I was recently surprised how bad Google results had gotten. Way back when I used Python heavily a google search would return results from python.org. When my kids were learning python for uni I told them the python online docs were great, but my daughter disagreed. I asked her to show me what she meant and she showed me her google search - the first page of links contained no hits for python.org results. She thought python online docs were crap like geeksforgeeks. It was one of those moments when you realize the world has changed around you since the last time you looked.
- citizenpaul 2y ago
  I've always been a critic of the algorithm over curation for search. Cheap low effort content has always been orders of magnitude easier to generate than real quality content. The only way to prevent declines of the real content is to put a wall(curation) around serious information providers so they cannot be gamified out of the way by bad actors. Embracing Googles "battle it out" style of search results has been a net harm to the quality of searching for information. If the world stuck with the slower but ultimately finite method of curating quality providers we would have an amazing set of resources instead of spam blogs.
lucasban 2y ago
At least with Kagi you can manually adjust the ranking of certain domains
hanniabu 2y ago
I actually love w3schools as a quick reference or to use their sandbox to test something out

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]