4 ms·

It fascinates me that it's an exponential function—the engine that transports fuel, and consumes fuel proportional to distance traveled: its fuel cost grows exp

It fascinates me that it's an exponential function—the engine that transports fuel, and consumes fuel proportional to distance traveled: its fuel cost grows exponentially. The precise laws of physics work out, just barely, that we can send fuel around the world by boat; or, as here, by airplane to a near-antipode of the world. It's physically possible to circumnavigate the world either way. It'd only take a slight modification of several physical constants that planets would be too large to cross. An alternate universe with continents so vast, no machine, no amount of fuel, could allow any exploration of their deepest interior; secrets permanently concealed.

dredmorbius 2y ago
In one of his books (I believe it's Collapse though possibly Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond comments on how introduction of novel foodstuffs, in particular the potato or sweet potato, by Europeans, greatly changed military capabilities and hence power relations amongst indigenous Pacific islanders. Particularly in New Zealand if memory serves. I'd had to be careful in noting that these were foods introduced by Europeans, but not European foods of themselves, in that potatoes (both varieties) are native to the Americas.
msandford 2y ago
Pipelines solve this problem quite neatly. The transport cost of a pipeline is very small compared to the fuel transported. Interestingly pipelines can have near perfect fuel efficiency (though few do) since it's possible to run the pumps with electricity. That means if the electricity that ran the pumps came from wind or solar no fuel was burned to move the product. At this point in time the only other thing that might be able to work that way is electrified freight trains. I don't believe there are any here in the US, at least not significant distances.
jimjimjim 2y ago
That's an interesting idea but a long series of fuel caches, though inefficient, could overcome this problem.
- sib 2y ago
  Q: What do all of these places have in common? Aden Bahamas Bermuda Bombay Gibraltar Halifax Hong Kong Jamaica Malta Singapore Suez Trincomalee A: They are all former coaling stations in the British Empire
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Look up US coaling stations as well. The Great White Fleet (circumnavigated the globe from 16 Dec. 1907 to 22 Feb 1909) was a demonstration that the US could send 16 battleships and support vessels on global missions. Transition of navies from coal to oil (initiated by the British just prior to WWI) greatly simplified bunkering operations. Fuel was still required, but oil (even the extraordinarily viscous bunker oil used by ships) is far easier to manage both in fueling and subsequent rebunkering to maintain ship's trim than solid coal. Among significant US refueling stations was the Saudi peninsula (though precisely where I'm not certain), which had a strong influence on subsequent US relationships and allegiances in the region, particularly notable after the discovery of vast oil reserves. I'd be interested in a list of US coaling / fueling stations, though I'm not finding one immediately. Pearl Harbor (Hawaii) and Subic Bay (Philippines) / were all but certainly two of these.
lmm 2y ago
That's the famous rocket equation (and with rockets, none of the solutions other replies mention, like depots or pipelines, are available). There's a thought experiment that for a planet only a bit heavier than Earth (something like 2x or 5x) it might be completely impractical to launch anything into orbit.
- throwup238 2y ago
  Long before there was the tyranny of the rocket equation, there was also the tyranny of the wagon equation [1] that limited how far per-industrialized armies could move with wagons and animals (though the equation wasn't formalized). [1] https://maximumeffort.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-the-wagon-equation https://maximumeffort.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-the-wago...
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I would tend to assume that the equation was formalized.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      Logisticians were intimately aware of the concept but I’ve never seen an equation formally written down or mentioned anywhere in ancient or medieval texts. They would have used a simplified version for planning - counting days of food an army has and how far they can move from their bases on that food, plus how much they can forage for and how much they can take from the local population. It looks more like a Civ5 game board than a neat equation like the ideal rocket equation.
  - Gravityloss 2y ago
    Breguet range equation for airplanes also predates rocketry though postdates wagons. Airplanes can already have a significant portion of their weight as fuel. It has a logarithm of the mass ratio as one of the terms.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago

dredmorbius 2y ago

In one of his books (I believe it's Collapse though possibly Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond comments on how introduction of novel foodstuffs, in particular the potato or sweet potato, by Europeans, greatly changed military capabilities and hence power relations amongst indigenous Pacific islanders. Particularly in New Zealand if memory serves. I'd had to be careful in noting that these were foods introduced by Europeans, but not European foods of themselves, in that potatoes (both varieties) are native to the Americas.

msandford 2y ago

Pipelines solve this problem quite neatly. The transport cost of a pipeline is very small compared to the fuel transported. Interestingly pipelines can have near perfect fuel efficiency (though few do) since it's possible to run the pumps with electricity. That means if the electricity that ran the pumps came from wind or solar no fuel was burned to move the product. At this point in time the only other thing that might be able to work that way is electrified freight trains. I don't believe there are any here in the US, at least not significant distances.

jimjimjim 2y ago

That's an interesting idea but a long series of fuel caches, though inefficient, could overcome this problem.

sib 2y ago
Q: What do all of these places have in common? Aden Bahamas Bermuda Bombay Gibraltar Halifax Hong Kong Jamaica Malta Singapore Suez Trincomalee A: They are all former coaling stations in the British Empire
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Look up US coaling stations as well. The Great White Fleet (circumnavigated the globe from 16 Dec. 1907 to 22 Feb 1909) was a demonstration that the US could send 16 battleships and support vessels on global missions. Transition of navies from coal to oil (initiated by the British just prior to WWI) greatly simplified bunkering operations. Fuel was still required, but oil (even the extraordinarily viscous bunker oil used by ships) is far easier to manage both in fueling and subsequent rebunkering to maintain ship's trim than solid coal. Among significant US refueling stations was the Saudi peninsula (though precisely where I'm not certain), which had a strong influence on subsequent US relationships and allegiances in the region, particularly notable after the discovery of vast oil reserves. I'd be interested in a list of US coaling / fueling stations, though I'm not finding one immediately. Pearl Harbor (Hawaii) and Subic Bay (Philippines) / were all but certainly two of these.

lmm 2y ago

That's the famous rocket equation (and with rockets, none of the solutions other replies mention, like depots or pipelines, are available). There's a thought experiment that for a planet only a bit heavier than Earth (something like 2x or 5x) it might be completely impractical to launch anything into orbit.

throwup238 2y ago
Long before there was the tyranny of the rocket equation, there was also the tyranny of the wagon equation [1] that limited how far per-industrialized armies could move with wagons and animals (though the equation wasn't formalized). [1] https://maximumeffort.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-the-wagon-equation https://maximumeffort.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-the-wago...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I would tend to assume that the equation was formalized.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Logisticians were intimately aware of the concept but I’ve never seen an equation formally written down or mentioned anywhere in ancient or medieval texts. They would have used a simplified version for planning - counting days of food an army has and how far they can move from their bases on that food, plus how much they can forage for and how much they can take from the local population. It looks more like a Civ5 game board than a neat equation like the ideal rocket equation.
- Gravityloss 2y ago
  Breguet range equation for airplanes also predates rocketry though postdates wagons. Airplanes can already have a significant portion of their weight as fuel. It has a logarithm of the mass ratio as one of the terms.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago