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By the same argument paying a toll both on one of the tunnels and the New Jersey turnpike is also double charging. Those charges are for fundamentally different

By the same argument paying a toll both on one of the tunnels and the New Jersey turnpike is also double charging. Those charges are for fundamentally different things - just like the tunnel toll and congestion charge are for different things.

ars 2y ago
> congestion charge are for different things The congestion charge is to make people go away and not go to Manhattan. So any kind of charge that's placed in the way of traffic to there counts. Also the toll on the tunnel is just a cash grab, and the congestion charge has that as a secondary goal, so they are not actually for different things.
- returningfory2 2y ago
  I mean if you define everything as a "cash grab" then, yeah, every payment you make is for the same thing. I just went to the movies and paid $17.50 for the ticket. I didn't realize that cash grab had the same purpose as the Holland Tunnel toll!
  - ars 2y ago
    Would you prefer the term "Rent Seeking"? i.e. New York is saying: "Go away we don't want you here, but if you are going to come anyway pay up". You aren't paying for a service (like a movie) you are paying to be allowed to go somewhere.
    - returningfory2 2y ago
      Wait are you also against paying for tickets for NJ Transit trains to NYC? In theory an NJ Transit ticket is "paying to be allowed to go somewhere". It's exactly analogous - it costs money to keep the trains going, just like it costs money to keep the tunnels going (and to pay for their original construction with bonds, though maybe that's not relevant today). You're not paying for permission to go somewhere; you're paying for all the stuff that needs to happen to make your journey possible in the first place.
      - ars 2y ago
        Most of the cost for NJ Transit is to pay the driver. > just like it costs money to keep the tunnels going No it doesn't. The toll is just rent seeking, it's not used to keep the tunnel going. The tunnel costs are just a tiny fraction of the tolls. See: https://www.nj.com/news/2017/12/gwb_jfk_and_ewr_bring_home_the_port_authority_baco.html https://www.nj.com/news/2017/12/gwb_jfk_and_ewr_bring_home_t... (and make sure to distinguish capital costs from operation costs, the article mostly will mention it). It's even worse in some ways because this is basically a jobs program for NY/NJ, they could automate a lot of stuff that isn't because the unions won't let: https://unionlabel.org/2022/08/02/twu-fighting-back-against-automation/ https://unionlabel.org/2022/08/02/twu-fighting-back-against-... The unions also control the unbelievably expensive construction costs from the first article I linked. This is why I called it a cash grab, because that's what it is.
        returningfory2 2y ago
        > Most of the cost for NJ Transit is to pay the driver. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you actually claiming that a majority of NJ Transit costs are paying bus and train drivers?

ars 2y ago

> congestion charge are for different things The congestion charge is to make people go away and not go to Manhattan. So any kind of charge that's placed in the way of traffic to there counts. Also the toll on the tunnel is just a cash grab, and the congestion charge has that as a secondary goal, so they are not actually for different things.

returningfory2 2y ago
I mean if you define everything as a "cash grab" then, yeah, every payment you make is for the same thing. I just went to the movies and paid $17.50 for the ticket. I didn't realize that cash grab had the same purpose as the Holland Tunnel toll!
- ars 2y ago
  Would you prefer the term "Rent Seeking"? i.e. New York is saying: "Go away we don't want you here, but if you are going to come anyway pay up". You aren't paying for a service (like a movie) you are paying to be allowed to go somewhere.
  - returningfory2 2y ago
    Wait are you also against paying for tickets for NJ Transit trains to NYC? In theory an NJ Transit ticket is "paying to be allowed to go somewhere". It's exactly analogous - it costs money to keep the trains going, just like it costs money to keep the tunnels going (and to pay for their original construction with bonds, though maybe that's not relevant today). You're not paying for permission to go somewhere; you're paying for all the stuff that needs to happen to make your journey possible in the first place.
    - ars 2y ago
      Most of the cost for NJ Transit is to pay the driver. > just like it costs money to keep the tunnels going No it doesn't. The toll is just rent seeking, it's not used to keep the tunnel going. The tunnel costs are just a tiny fraction of the tolls. See: https://www.nj.com/news/2017/12/gwb_jfk_and_ewr_bring_home_the_port_authority_baco.html https://www.nj.com/news/2017/12/gwb_jfk_and_ewr_bring_home_t... (and make sure to distinguish capital costs from operation costs, the article mostly will mention it). It's even worse in some ways because this is basically a jobs program for NY/NJ, they could automate a lot of stuff that isn't because the unions won't let: https://unionlabel.org/2022/08/02/twu-fighting-back-against-automation/ https://unionlabel.org/2022/08/02/twu-fighting-back-against-... The unions also control the unbelievably expensive construction costs from the first article I linked. This is why I called it a cash grab, because that's what it is.
      - returningfory2 2y ago
        > Most of the cost for NJ Transit is to pay the driver. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you actually claiming that a majority of NJ Transit costs are paying bus and train drivers?